Robbins290
Member
I voted cz. Im startin to hate beretta with a passion
CZ 75 vs Beretta 92
- Thread starter Satasaurus
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Satasaurus
member
Could you elaborate?
Satasaurus
member
Ah, okay. I didn't know what you meant. I think it's safe to say that there's plenty of great shooters that don't research every pistol religiously. As a matter of fact, I bet some of the best shooters don't even have a dang computer. I'm sure a lot of great people on this forum, that aren't sarcastic jerks, know more about these specific pistols then I do. That's what forums are for. Again, who are you to say that I need training? You a Navy Seal or something? I'm probably better then you. I'm done wasting my time replying to you. Have fun insulting people on here because of their personal safety beliefs. I'm sure you're really well liked.
Robbins290
Member
Satersarus, i tried a few berettas. I bought a m9, the civilian version of the military sidearm. I shot one in the service. Did very good. The one i bought. I couldn't hit anything. At first i was a 8-12" low. I was told to try nato ammo, didnt work. I put 2k rounds down range with it. Could never hit on target. All my other handguns hit exactly where i want them too. And i had a 21a, it would jam alot for a bug gun.
I am an LE trained certified 1911 armorer. Not a Navy Seal. Did not call you names either.
History.Doc
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- Mar 25, 2012
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- 131
I own both and like both. Both have been 100% reliable. I might just be really lucky but I don't think I've had any kinds of FTF or FTE with factory ammo with either gun. I own the 92FS because it is a classic platform. I like shooting it and it is a great gun. I prefer the CZ 75B. Actually, I probably prefer the CZ 75 compact, albeit marginally. I also have the Kadet kit, which is really, really nice. For all the reasons everyone has mentioned above, I prefer the CZ. Nothing wrong the the Beretta though. I'd let looks and feel determine it if it were an either/or proposition.
Walt Sherrill
Member
YZ said:
A couple of points here:
1) How will anyone know whether somebody was carrying a weapon in cocked and locked mode if the shooter doesn't 'fess up? And, what difference would it make, if the shooting was justified?
2) only a small portion of the military issued handguns now used are capable of cocked and lock carry, but some Special Forces, Special Operations, and Marine Units are now being issued 1911s again. (Most of these folks change their weapons to fit their mission objectives -- a C&L 1911 in one situation, a SIG 226 in another, a silenced .22 in another. One SEAL I talked with some years ago didn't much care for handguns; he said that most of the time he'd rather have an extra canteen of water on his belt.)
I've read NOTHING that clearly explained WHY the U.S. military changed to Berettas instead of continuing to use revolvers and 1911s, but suspect it had more to do with the fact that NATO widely used 9mm ammo in most of its small arms (hand guns and submachine guns) and almost no other militaries (NATO or otherwise) used .45 ACP. I think it was a decision based on practical logistics and not just a concern about the safety of "cocked and locked" carry.
3) Whether a shooter's intent and mindset and training MIGHT be scrutinized when lethal force is used will be dependent upon the facts of the case at hand, whether the other party was armed and threatening, whethe others were at risk, as well as a number of other factors -- none of which seem to fit your more simple analysis. The legal system in some parts of the country are often quite friendly and understanding with people who use weapons in self-defense. A lot of cases never make it to court, are not prosecuted, and never have to face a jury. That certainly seems to be the case here in the South. I've read of several cases over the past year where the use of lethal force did not result in a prosecution of, or a civil suit/problems for the person using the weapon. The American Rifleman cites such cases in each month's issue.
Mas Ayoob makes a big deal out of all of this, but he's apparently got to sell magazine articles and classes if he's going to make his mortgage payments. He has almost single-handedly made a career out amplifying the fear of prosecution associated with self-defense. I don't know how REAL the threat he addresses might actually be. Have you read of any sources except from Mas Ayoob?
Thousands of folks use guns in self-defense each year, and only a few are prosecuted; apparently, even fewer are found guilty of wrongdoing -- and in a number of those cases, they were wrong to do what they did.
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Ayoob is a professional expert witness for defense in justifiable homicide cases. I do defer to his knowledge.
One reason for the US military switching to M9 was an unacceptable incidence of negligent discharges. Just one of several.
spanishjames
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Satasaurus: Because you plan on carrying with an empty chamber, I'd recommend the Beretta. The CZ does have a narrower slide, and under pressure, you may cause a malfunction at the wrong time. The Beretta has a wide slide that should be easier to grip and rack. Myself, I'd carry a CZ 75bd chambered/decocked. The D/A trigger and hammer block is safe enough, just like a revolver.
Ps. This is the Internet, we don't know you, nor can we see your body language. It's no easy task to interpret your skills or lack thereof by reading a few posts on a forum. You asked some questions, and got more advice than you asked for, nothing else. There's no need to bark at those who are just trying to help.
Ps. This is the Internet, we don't know you, nor can we see your body language. It's no easy task to interpret your skills or lack thereof by reading a few posts on a forum. You asked some questions, and got more advice than you asked for, nothing else. There's no need to bark at those who are just trying to help.
Thompson9494
Member
What James said is exactly right. If you are adamant about carrying your pistol at Condition Three (which I do not recommend, just me, no disrespect to you in any way) the Beretta 92 is going to be better because of the increased slide area. For reloading, the CZ's slide is good if you simply rack to slide like me but if you have to chamber a round from Condition Three or clear a jam, the smaller slide area of the CZ may be more difficult to manipulate during a high stress situation.
James is also very right about the 75BD (what I have as well) being completely safe to carry with a round in the pipe. The CZ P-01, an alloy framed, semi-compact sister to the CZ 75 and is a NATO pistol meaning it had to endure the NATO torture tests. During the NATO torture tests they do all kinds of things to these guns, including dropping them hammer up, hammer back, loaded, unloaded, etc, in an attempt to make the gun discharge without human manipulation or to render the gun inoperable. The P-01 passed with a pretty good margin if what I read is true, they dropped the gun on the hammer multiple times without discharge, pretty safe if you ask me.
Ultimately, it is your gun, so you can do whatever you choose with it. Carry it however you wish but make sure you are able to rack the slide quickly and effectively and bring the gun on target in an extremely short period of time (I'd say less than 3 Mississippi seconds), always remember, "The Firstest with the Mostest wins". This is not intended as an insult or detraction to your skills in any form, just remember that simple little phrase when deciding how long you want your draw to be.
That is all.
Which ever gun you buy, have fun with it!
Thompson
Satasaurus
member
I understand what you guys are saying, and I didn't bark at anybody but the one guy I believe. I got the impression that he was insulting me and being sarcastic and I responded accordingly. I know that most people are just trying to help.
Walt Sherrill
Member
I'll agree on all counts, but with added notes...
Both of the guns mentioned have firing pin blocks -- and you don't have to have a decocker model to take advantage of that safety feature. Neither of them will fire unless you pull the trigger, so accidental or negligent discharges aren't easily done. Racking the slide is slightly easier with the Beretta, but using the hand-over-the-rear-sight technique works well with the CZ.
As for the P-01 one being a NATO gun -- true. But if you read the CZ website information and press releases carefully, you'll find that they mention both NATO and the Czech National Police in the same release, and it's the Czech NP tests they're referring to, not a NATO test. NATO doesn't seem to have a TEST standard or torture test standard; CZ doesn't claim that their weapons passed a NATO standards test. The Czech National Police standards were very stringent.
The news release is written in a way that a less-than-careful read could lead the reader to conclude CZ passed NATO tests, but the very demanding test was one required by the Czech National Police. That, in turn, was probably due to the problems the Police of the Czech Republic had with the original CZ-75 PCR, quickly fixed, years ago. But, once burned, twice shy.
Most of the major guns discussed on this forum are in use by NATO nations. Glocks, SIGs, Berettas, are all widely used as standard issue service weapons in NATO, and more recently, some CZs are being used by a few of the Eastern European military units. CZ are not yet widely used as a military service weapon.
peacemaker45
Member
I've had a CZ-75, and my dad had a Beretta 92. Both of us preferred the slimmer, steel framed CZ. The Beretta's just too big; feels like Glock 21 size. Also, the CZ was more accurate, printing 2" groups at 25 yards pretty regularly, while the Beretta looked more like a shotgun pattern. Both were reliable, but the CZ survived a season of USPSA Production with no real work required. Neither of us wanted to shoot the Beretta in competition.
Satasaurus
member
I never saw that link for some reason, and I feel like it is relevant. Grocery shopping is a whole lot different then a drug deal or something. If you know that you're going into a bad situation, but continue to go then that's on you. Personally I mind my own business, avoid shady people and dangerous situations, and if I get attacked even after all that then they can meet my 17 friends. I feel bad for anyone that has to fight for their life, but if they willingly walked into it then they're not the brightest.
edit: let's please just get back on topic. For the love of God. I see everyone's point and I'll probably just carry hammer down with one in the chamber. Even if I do decide to carry with an empty chamber, you don't seem too thrilled with me, so what do you care? To each their own. My gun, my life, my decision.
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BlindJustice
Member
THis thread has drifted too far from the subject
which early on, simply showed Beretta guys have CZ 75B envy
see ya....
R-
which early on, simply showed Beretta guys have CZ 75B envy
see ya....
R-
Black Butte
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- Jun 21, 2008
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- 888
For me, the biggest difference is the grips. Unless you're an NBA star, the CZ will probably fit your hands better.
Satasaurus
member
Yeah, I have a bad feeling that the Beretta doesn't fit my hand good. I don't know why I just want to like the Beretta more. Partly because I think it looks better and because it's in stock a decent amount, where as the CZs are out everywhere I look.
SwampWolf
Member
This is a mind-set not conducive to surviving an armed confrontation. That second you speak of is a very long time when it comes to getting your pistol into play. Before I retired from le, my agency's firearm qualification course of fire required us to draw from a snapped, thumb-break holster, concealed by a jacket, and fire two accurate shots from a "traditional" da pistol (Third Generation Smiths) in two seconds or less. Proper training made scoring within this time frame constraint fairly easy to accomplish with a pistol having a round in the chamber. No amount of training would ever allow most shooters to get even one shot off within two seconds if the pistol was being drawn from the holster with an empty chamber.
And I agree with other posters who have made the point that there is really no difference between the requirements of le officers and civilians when it comes to defending yourself with a handgun. The person most likely to survive a shoot-out is the one who shoots the fastest and the most accurately, whether he's wearing a badge or not. And lots of armed conflicts have happened in areas very different than Harlem in terms of the propensity for having to defend yourself with a gun.
Among the many pistols I own, I have both a Beretta Model 92FS and a CZ model 85B. I like both pistols very much and I spent a long time before casting my vote for the CZ. As others have opined, the biggest reason for me choosing the CZ over the Beretta had nothing to do with reliability, accuracy, trigger-pull or workmanship but had everything to do with how the pistol handled in my hand. The important thing to understand before picking between one of these two fine pistols is how it handles and feels in your hand.
This may be heresy for some, but I would choose the affordable but recently discontinued Smith & Wesson Model 5906 over either the CZ or the Beretta pistol when it comes to reliability, durability, accuracy and ergonomics. I would strongly urge you to give this excellent pistol a look-see before you make your final decision.
Thompson9494
Member
The Smith and Wesson 5906 has been one of those pistols I've been interested in for a while but can never find one at a store that isn't under the Law Enforcement/Military only counter. It looks like a fine weapon but finding one that I would be eligible to buy seems to be a challenge, that and it being out of production kind of pushes me away from wanting one when I turn 21.
Satasaurus
member
I see what you mean, but honestly I don't want to practice quick drawing. It seems like every time I read about an accidental discharge it's because of something like that. Being in a rush with a deadly weapons seems like asking for trouble. I'm sure I'll get some crap for saying that, but it's how I feel. I'll practice drawing, flicking the safety off, and dry firing with it unloaded. I basically want to get to get to the point where I can be like Vincent on Collateral. I know it's a movie and all that, but if anyone's seen it I'm specifically talking about the scene where they try to steal his briefcase. Unfortunately I can't practice double taps, rapid fire, or any other useful combat shooting at the local range. I guess some idiots ruined it for everyone.
edit: I actually really like the 5906. I had one just like it as my first semi auto ever, but unfortunately I was an amateur back then and didn't appreciate how cool it was. I ended up selling it for less then I should have and miss it. I could have gotten a 5906 for like $400 a year ago and I passed it up. I should have gotten it. I don't like that they're so old, but I guess there's plenty of guns much older that are still perfectly fine.
edit: I actually really like the 5906. I had one just like it as my first semi auto ever, but unfortunately I was an amateur back then and didn't appreciate how cool it was. I ended up selling it for less then I should have and miss it. I could have gotten a 5906 for like $400 a year ago and I passed it up. I should have gotten it. I don't like that they're so old, but I guess there's plenty of guns much older that are still perfectly fine.
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
What you need is training from a competent instructor.
What you are describing generates the idea that you are self teaching, which is the cause of your angst.SwampWolf
Member
Unfortunately, "being in a rush" is a factor that is almost always a component in surviving a gun-fight. Good training will help obviate this implicit "drawback".
Satasaurus
member
Yeah, I am self taught with the exception of watching all the youtube videos that I can of championship shooters giving tips. They've actually helped a lot in the last few years. I can barely afford my ammo, let alone paying for someone to help me, and at this point I really don't think I need the help.What you need is training from a competent instructor.
Also, I shoot realistically at the range. I purposely get myself worked up to the point of shaking just so I am practicing under stress. I can still easily get all of my shots in the orange firing at the stupid "1 shot per second" rule like that. I'm not a big fan of bullseye shooting because I'm not going to be all calm and collected in a gunfight, and the bad guy isn't just going to stand there and say take your time. Sometimes I really crack down and see how good I can do, and I'm completely satisfied with my shooting skills.
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