Satasaurus
member
You're sooo lucky. I wish I lived in Colorado; Florida sucks unless you're rich.
CZ 75 vs Beretta 92
- Thread starter Satasaurus
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I prefer the CZ75 but the Beretta is a nice gun in it's own right. Either will do the job well but the CZ75 has a better trigger in both DA and SA.
The CZ75 also seems to soak up the recoil a bit better and for me at least, has better ergonomics.
I didn't fire the FS92 extensively but have put a couple thousand trouble free rounds through my CZ75 and have yet to clear a malfunction. I've also had good luck with my Canik C100, which is a CZ Compact clone with an aluminum frame.
The CZ75 also seems to soak up the recoil a bit better and for me at least, has better ergonomics.
I didn't fire the FS92 extensively but have put a couple thousand trouble free rounds through my CZ75 and have yet to clear a malfunction. I've also had good luck with my Canik C100, which is a CZ Compact clone with an aluminum frame.
Walt Sherrill
Member
You can learn a lot of good things from YOUTUBE, and bad things, too. You can also THINK you're doing something right, and practice it and practice it only to later find that it wasn't quite the proper way of doing things. Practicing the wrong things only makes you "wronger."
A number of us (4) in our local IDPA club had an instructor come in and run a class for us. He brought an assistant who was very knowledgeable. He spent about four hours with us. You'd be surprised just how much you can learn in such a short period of time, if the instructor is really good, focused on the students, and able to demonstrate what he's trying to teach you.
Several of the folks in that class went on to take a couple of half-day sessions with the instructor (a guy named Larry Brown), and the costs were quite reasonable ($100 - $150). That was some years ago, and prices may have gone up. He had access to good facilities. A couple of sessions, spread out over a month or two, would probably give you greater benefit than one of the big-name schools. (Most of the folks who go to the big schools are generally pretty proficient already, and are trying to refine skills.)
Larry was a top-ranked IPSC Grand Master (I think that's the proper term) and shot internationally, but has spent part of the past decade working as an instructor/trainer with Special Ops troop at Ft. Bragg. He still offers private instruction. (The thing I most liked about Larry was that his ego was never in the way -- and he was very careful about NOT damaging the egos of his students. That's a great "teacher" skill.) Larry joined us at our club for an IDPA qualifier match once; it was his FIRST IDPA match or qualifier, and he shot a NIB Glock 17 borrowed from a friend. He shot a very high MASTER score in Stock Service Pistol. It was like watching a time/motion study expert who was also a ballet star. Nothing sensational, except his scores, but absolutely NO MOTION wasted.
Instruction is available and often at very low prices. I'd recommend the one-on-one type of instruction if you can get it, as in some of the larger classes, you might never get the attention you need if you're missing the point on some simple techniques.
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kBob
Member
I clicked on the CZ75B button. Actually I have never owned a CZ75B
The Cz 75 I picked up in Europe in 1982 has not needed replacing. At the time I had picked up a Walther P-1 (P38) Austrian Police trade in just to have something in the NATO pistol caliber even though I still carried a .45 Auto. My job was such that I might be stuck with NATO troops other than US and everyone except the US was using 9x19mm. Being sort of restricted to FMJ ammo ( I usually used Geco as it was the hottest) I decided "More is better" and started looking. As I was already very familure with the P35 Browning Hi Power that was my first thought.....but then I saw my first Cz75. I really liked it and it fit my GI holsters made for the 1911A1 sort of and a whole lot better than a P38.
When I first brought it into the country customs assured me there were fewer than 600 total in the country, one custom guy said less than 60 so I am guessing it was somewhere in between. I would take it to gun shows just to tease folks. Typically got offered $1400 in 1983 and as high as $1700. I would take it on ranges where folks were shooting FIE TZs and have them slobber all over it and the AT 84 crowd usually looked a bit ashamed. Of course in just a year or two everyone could have one, but it was fun.
I agreed with Col. Cooper that if one were to be restricted to a 9 sillymeter, the CZ 75 was the one at that time to be restricted to.
When the first Glocks started coming in I got all excited, but then after shooting them was glad to have a CZ. Most Beretta 92 and Taurus same same shooters I have let shoot my CZ have liked the CZ and a couple have said they wished they had tried the CZ before the Beretta.
-kBob
The Cz 75 I picked up in Europe in 1982 has not needed replacing. At the time I had picked up a Walther P-1 (P38) Austrian Police trade in just to have something in the NATO pistol caliber even though I still carried a .45 Auto. My job was such that I might be stuck with NATO troops other than US and everyone except the US was using 9x19mm. Being sort of restricted to FMJ ammo ( I usually used Geco as it was the hottest) I decided "More is better" and started looking. As I was already very familure with the P35 Browning Hi Power that was my first thought.....but then I saw my first Cz75. I really liked it and it fit my GI holsters made for the 1911A1 sort of and a whole lot better than a P38.
When I first brought it into the country customs assured me there were fewer than 600 total in the country, one custom guy said less than 60 so I am guessing it was somewhere in between. I would take it to gun shows just to tease folks. Typically got offered $1400 in 1983 and as high as $1700. I would take it on ranges where folks were shooting FIE TZs and have them slobber all over it and the AT 84 crowd usually looked a bit ashamed. Of course in just a year or two everyone could have one, but it was fun.
I agreed with Col. Cooper that if one were to be restricted to a 9 sillymeter, the CZ 75 was the one at that time to be restricted to.
When the first Glocks started coming in I got all excited, but then after shooting them was glad to have a CZ. Most Beretta 92 and Taurus same same shooters I have let shoot my CZ have liked the CZ and a couple have said they wished they had tried the CZ before the Beretta.
-kBob
kBob
Member
Satasaurus,
What Florida do you live in? I am guessing you live south of the barge canal for it sounds as if you live in Baja New York.
Do look into shooting clubs that do action type competition of some brand or another and yes most of them do cost money.
Having done a bit of Range Master work I can assure you that a hefty portion of those that attempt to shoot faster than one round a second really should not be doing so and this included security folks and even sworn LEOs in my experience. Once someone has shot up range structures, or endangered other folks on the range it is a bit to late to call back bullets. It makes sense to have what even I consider and annoying restriction when dealing with folks of unknown back grounds. Many ranges will allow folks that have demonstrated in competition they can shoot rapidly with control and accuracy to use an area where they can practice. One private range locally has a 35 meter bay that is used only by those qualified by the club to do so and shoot steel, but all else must shoot slower.
NRA instructors teach BASIC FIREARMS SAFETY for the most part and they teach from NRA materials and if they are teaching something else NRA needs to know. That said not everyone agrees with NRA, but they have been at it a long time and put some research into it. I have had Ex Spurts question what I teach as an NRA Instructor and usually find they are the sort of person that relies on Movies and Bubba to teach them. What I teach as an NRA instructor is not all that I teach as kBob and I certainly don't teach outside NRA guidelines when teaching as an NRA Instructor.
You might look into clubs or private ranges to see if any are sponsoring named nationally known instructors. This is how I got my first such instruction from Mas Ayoob in his LFI1 class. Also former Gunsite instructor Bill Jeans I believe still tours. Be prepared to be required to show up with a proper duty holster, spare mags and mag holders around 500 rounds of service ammo and a chunk of money.
I have yet to find an instructor or hear of an instructor I agree with 100 percent. You take the classes, be polite, pay attention, try it their way, worry about just yourself and not the other students and take away what you want in terms of knowledge and experience.
Good luck and maybe you just need to find a different Florida.
-kBob
What Florida do you live in? I am guessing you live south of the barge canal for it sounds as if you live in Baja New York.
Do look into shooting clubs that do action type competition of some brand or another and yes most of them do cost money.
Having done a bit of Range Master work I can assure you that a hefty portion of those that attempt to shoot faster than one round a second really should not be doing so and this included security folks and even sworn LEOs in my experience. Once someone has shot up range structures, or endangered other folks on the range it is a bit to late to call back bullets. It makes sense to have what even I consider and annoying restriction when dealing with folks of unknown back grounds. Many ranges will allow folks that have demonstrated in competition they can shoot rapidly with control and accuracy to use an area where they can practice. One private range locally has a 35 meter bay that is used only by those qualified by the club to do so and shoot steel, but all else must shoot slower.
NRA instructors teach BASIC FIREARMS SAFETY for the most part and they teach from NRA materials and if they are teaching something else NRA needs to know. That said not everyone agrees with NRA, but they have been at it a long time and put some research into it. I have had Ex Spurts question what I teach as an NRA Instructor and usually find they are the sort of person that relies on Movies and Bubba to teach them. What I teach as an NRA instructor is not all that I teach as kBob and I certainly don't teach outside NRA guidelines when teaching as an NRA Instructor.
You might look into clubs or private ranges to see if any are sponsoring named nationally known instructors. This is how I got my first such instruction from Mas Ayoob in his LFI1 class. Also former Gunsite instructor Bill Jeans I believe still tours. Be prepared to be required to show up with a proper duty holster, spare mags and mag holders around 500 rounds of service ammo and a chunk of money.
I have yet to find an instructor or hear of an instructor I agree with 100 percent. You take the classes, be polite, pay attention, try it their way, worry about just yourself and not the other students and take away what you want in terms of knowledge and experience.
Good luck and maybe you just need to find a different Florida.
-kBob
Satasaurus
member
I actually also live in Northern Florida. As far as I know there's nothing like that around here but I'll take a look. Even if there was I almost fell over when you said 500 rounds. I'm pretty sure that in the last 10 years of shooting I've never shot more then 100 rounds at a time. That has a lot to do with me being an idiot and not reloading though, so hopefully that will change soon. Even so, that just seems like a whole lot of ammo and money to shoot at once.
As far as the rapid fire thing, I've been to a few indoor ranges that allow machine guns and rapid fire, and that was probably the most fun I've ever had shooting. I don't blame the ranges for having rules like that in place after seeing some of the unsafe idiots that shoot there, but it just sucks that, yet again, incompetent morons negatively effect me. It sucks living in a society where the laws and rules are all in place for the stupidest people and you're not stupid. I think rapid fire is pretty realistic. I know that if my life was on the line I definitely wouldn't be shooting 1 shot per second, at least not until I calmed down, and hopefully by then it would be over. Plus, with 17 shots I'm not too worried about unloading a few shots right off the bat.
As far as the rapid fire thing, I've been to a few indoor ranges that allow machine guns and rapid fire, and that was probably the most fun I've ever had shooting. I don't blame the ranges for having rules like that in place after seeing some of the unsafe idiots that shoot there, but it just sucks that, yet again, incompetent morons negatively effect me. It sucks living in a society where the laws and rules are all in place for the stupidest people and you're not stupid. I think rapid fire is pretty realistic. I know that if my life was on the line I definitely wouldn't be shooting 1 shot per second, at least not until I calmed down, and hopefully by then it would be over. Plus, with 17 shots I'm not too worried about unloading a few shots right off the bat.
SwampWolf
Member
This sounds a lot like a "spray and pray" mentality. I'm sure that you'd agree, a few shots placed accurately trumps many shots fired indiscriminately. Though I'm a big proponent of carrying a pistol for self-defense that has a relatively large ammunition capacity, it seems that carrying a pistol having many bullets on board gives some people the false notion that quantity is a substitute for deliberate, controlled accuracy in a gunfight scenario.
kBob
Member
Satasaurus,
Yep 500 rounds for a two and an half day one night class is about right. I have never actually used it all up (and with the 12 gauge riot gun I am glad of that) in one class, but generally over 350 without any do overs is what I have used.
When I taught the old style NRA Personal Protection Course before it was broken in to two parts at the urging of Colonel Cooper and his posse among the NRA big wigs we typically had students shoot 60-80 rounds in the two hour range session if they had no reshoots and that is just two hours of very basic shooting. We encouraged folks to bring two boxes of 50 each for the class and a third to have to encourage them to practice later. We also brought spare ammo in common calibers just in case.
A typical plate match at my club runs two hours and is shot man on man and takes about 60-80 rounds as well and two or three a month add up....plus practice at other times.
Gotta go deal with a hurt horse.....
-kBob
Yep 500 rounds for a two and an half day one night class is about right. I have never actually used it all up (and with the 12 gauge riot gun I am glad of that) in one class, but generally over 350 without any do overs is what I have used.
When I taught the old style NRA Personal Protection Course before it was broken in to two parts at the urging of Colonel Cooper and his posse among the NRA big wigs we typically had students shoot 60-80 rounds in the two hour range session if they had no reshoots and that is just two hours of very basic shooting. We encouraged folks to bring two boxes of 50 each for the class and a third to have to encourage them to practice later. We also brought spare ammo in common calibers just in case.
A typical plate match at my club runs two hours and is shot man on man and takes about 60-80 rounds as well and two or three a month add up....plus practice at other times.
Gotta go deal with a hurt horse.....
-kBob
It really isn't that much if you want to learn the skills to be a better shooter.
An intermediate class is usually 1000 rounds in 3 days and advanced classes usually run through 2000 in the same time. But it really isn't about round count as much as it is learning and understanding the techniques.
An intermediate class will get you shooting into 6" at 7 yards at a rate of 4 shots a second and it really isn't anything special to draw and place an accurate shot at that distance in < 1.5 sec.
IDPA is a easy way to start in competition. Our local match fees run $20 and you'll usually only shoot about 90 rounds...so the cost is pretty low
Rocketmedic
Member
ATI and Taurus both make excellent Beretta 92 clones.
Dlowe167
Member
Both are good,but CZ for sure. I have a CZ P-06 in .40,but good friend has the 9mm CZ P-01. Never a flaw,fits great in hand. But more important great shooter under $500.
I have both, the Original CZ75, and a 92F. I am not as comfortable with the 92, mostly because of the C Course (About 15 years ago), I took the CZ. The Range Master questioned it, , watching. he asked me if I was going to shoot it. I told him, yes I planned to. When the shooting started, he was right there by me, watching. The first 5 were about the size of a Half Dollar just right and low of the 10-Ring, he chuckled, and moved on. After the shooting, he commented, that he was surprised at how well it shot. I just thanked him and moved on.
I would and Have chosen the CZ.
Just my $0.02
Dan
I would and Have chosen the CZ.
Just my $0.02
Dan
ApacheCoTodd
member
This is one of the toughest polls I've ever responded to.
I come very close to having both pistols in the form of a pre-import CZ-75 and an M-9 Beretta.
The Beretta feels quite the handful compared to the CZ when I handle them side by side. Where the CZ has that oddly diminutive Hi Power feel, at the same time it presents as unmistakably "full sized". I guess the Beretta just feels like a bit of a plus sized pistol to me. Still, I like it.
Mags are a wash in the decision as Mecgars are available and reasonable for each.
Repair parts, upgrades and warranty may fall a bit in the favor of the Beretta.
Since I already have a fair version of each and with cost out of the equation, I guess the best way to approach it for me is to say - which would I keep in an "if you could only have... blah, blah, blah" scenario.
Well, in that case, I adopt the Captain Kirk perspective of; "I don't believe in no-win scenarios.":banghead:
Gun to my head though - I gotta go "all steel" CZ I guess as a legacy gun... though, that alloy Beretta frame will never rust, but the CZ can't be melted in a re-anodizing mishap, while the CZ might.... Arghh!
How 'bout this? Get the one most available first and then the other?
I come very close to having both pistols in the form of a pre-import CZ-75 and an M-9 Beretta.
The Beretta feels quite the handful compared to the CZ when I handle them side by side. Where the CZ has that oddly diminutive Hi Power feel, at the same time it presents as unmistakably "full sized". I guess the Beretta just feels like a bit of a plus sized pistol to me. Still, I like it.
Mags are a wash in the decision as Mecgars are available and reasonable for each.
Repair parts, upgrades and warranty may fall a bit in the favor of the Beretta.
Since I already have a fair version of each and with cost out of the equation, I guess the best way to approach it for me is to say - which would I keep in an "if you could only have... blah, blah, blah" scenario.
Well, in that case, I adopt the Captain Kirk perspective of; "I don't believe in no-win scenarios.":banghead:
Gun to my head though - I gotta go "all steel" CZ I guess as a legacy gun... though, that alloy Beretta frame will never rust, but the CZ can't be melted in a re-anodizing mishap, while the CZ might.... Arghh!
How 'bout this? Get the one most available first and then the other?
I have both. I prefer the cz and hopefully will be able to pass both down to my kids. I am more accurate with the cz75b, and as many have already mentioned, it feels perfect in my hands (practice shooting with weak hand also, you never know). Replaced the front sights (full and compact), with hiviz sights. Someday I will spring for meprolite sights. That has always been my only complaint on the 75b. The sights are lacking. On the same token, 92 sights are fixed, although not bad for white dots. My vote....cz 75.
JoelSteinbach
Member
Beretta. The FS is a great gun I'd trust my life with. Almost bought one in the 9mm this week but wanted a .45 and bought a PX4 instead.
It had a trigger job (2.65lbs), nylon rod replaced with combat steel one as well as a heavy duty spring, receiver and slide polished for very smooth and quick action, and night sites.
He also had nine 14 round mags available for extra. 4 of them stamped for military or government use only. He wanted $620 for the gun alone. It was that, the PX4 .45 I bought for $100+ less, or a Kimber 1911 for considerably more.
I did look at a CZ.
It had a trigger job (2.65lbs), nylon rod replaced with combat steel one as well as a heavy duty spring, receiver and slide polished for very smooth and quick action, and night sites.
He also had nine 14 round mags available for extra. 4 of them stamped for military or government use only. He wanted $620 for the gun alone. It was that, the PX4 .45 I bought for $100+ less, or a Kimber 1911 for considerably more.
I did look at a CZ.
The Lone Haranguer
Member
The CZ75 fits my hand better. The Beretta is too large for me, and is a little on the bulky side overall for the small cartridge. The Beretta is known for its smooth trigger pulls, however, the CZ not so much. My personal preference would be for a 75BD, the decocker model.
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