"Do you have firearms in the vehicle?"

[Molon Labe]

I understand why the question is irksome, but you've got to choose your battles. We've got bigger concerns than a cop's question that barely registers 0.001 on the oppression scale.

But that's assuming the LEO is not a rogue cop. I never assume this... I always assume the cop is a JBT unless proven otherwise.

If a rogue cop asks if I have any firearms in the vehicle, and I say "yes," he will use this information to his advantage. He might use it to establish probable cause to search my vehicle, and/or he might steal my firearm.

So from what I can gather based on the responses in this thread, if a cop asks me, "Do you have firearms in the vehicle?"...

- I should not answer "yes," as this would put me in a bad position if the cop is a JBT.

- I should not answer "no," since it would be a lie to do so.

- I should not answer the question at all.

 

[Sawdust]

Ajax22 sez:

Its a bit different for a CCP, you actually have a legal obligation to reveal the fact that you are carying.

I don't believe that this is a true statement for the state of California.

Please provide a link to the applicable statute.

Thanks,

Sawdust

 

[rbernie]

Say I get pulled over and the LEO asks, "Do you have firearms in the vehicle?"

"Is there a problem, officer?"

 

[Cosmoline]

Remember you can refuse to answer but you can't lie to them.

 

[bruss01]

Ajax -

I agree with you 100% regarding firearms in the car in CA. Avoiding the question would be seen as "suspicious behavior" or "acting nervous" and that becomes probable cause as in, you wouldn't be nervous or acting suspicious if you didn't have something to hide.

Saying "Yes, I have a gun in the car" means they will call in reinforcements regardless of how polite and law-abiding you may seem. Be prepared to be handcuffed and face down in the dirt "for officer safety" while they tear your car apart looking for the gun and any contraband you might have stashed that would warrant you needing a gun. Once they have wallowed your guns in the gravel, humiliated you for a couple of hours on the side of the road, and shredded your upholstery, you'll be free to go. No, not every officer is like this, but in urban areas in CA this will be your "luck of the draw" about half the time. In some areas it is not the LAW but it is POLICY that they will not return your firearm on the spot, you will have to go thru a process of forms and fees to "reclaim" it. Unless it was an expensive firearm, these fees often exceed the value of the firearm.

This, of course, is assuming that you were 100% legally posessing, storing and transporting the firearm at the time you were pulled over. If you were guilty of any infraction, however minor, you will not be getting your firearm back (it's now "evidence") and likely spending the night at the Graybar Hotel.

If you think this is an exageration, think again. My instructor for hunter's education is an attorney. He drives a Lexus, wears a business suit and is a 50 year old white guy with a jovial demeanor. He has a carry permit. Keeps his gun in a locked container in the rear of the vehicle. One day he was pulled over for a seat belt violation (he unfastened it while driving for 30 seconds so he could reach something, then refastened it, then saw the red & blue lights). When the officer came to his window he displayed both his driver's license and his carry permit and advised the officer he had a gun in the car. He ended up spending several VERY TENSE MINUTES looking down the barrel of the officers duty weapon, while reinforcements were called in. If it were not for the fact that he is a respected local attorney, he would have gotten the full treatment. As it was, he had to go and file the forms and reclaim his gun through proper "channels" despite the fact he did nothing wrong except the seat belt violation. Considering the risk of having an officer with a nervous trigger finger make an "oops", I will lie up front and apologize and claim forgetfulness afterwards if necessary. There's no sense in ASKING for trouble.

 

[Molon Labe]

I will lie up front

Well, based on the responses in this thread, it would not be in your favor to lie.

As best as I can tell, if an LEO asks, "Do you have firearms in the vehicle?" you should not respond with a "yes" or "no" - you should simply not answer the question. I could be wrong, but I don't think the refusal to answer this question can be used as probable cause to search your vehicle.

 

[Cosmoline]

Polite refusal to answer is not probable cause. Remember to have all the required insurance and registration papers and give those to the police. Don't lock those in your car. And obviously, if you have a firearm on you they will find it in the pat-down which they are allowed to do for their own safety (according to the SCT). Keep calm, never run away and always be polite even if they freak out and act like animals. Remember, they NEED YOU TO TALK unless there's something illegal they can see or find without breaking into the car. They will try all kinds of tricks to get you to talk. Threats, lies, browbeating, etc. But if they arrest you for refusing to talk, it's their jobs that will be history not your liberty. 90% of the time suspects hang themselves by talking a little bit or trying to lie their way out of a problem. For example, dont' take them up on their offer to call a tow company for you ;-)

 

[usmcski]

In NC (If you have a CCW permit) it is required that you provide it along with your OL when stopped....before the Officer/Trooper/Deputy even asks.
If you do not have a CCW permit and the weapon is not in plain view you are in the wrong...carrying a concealed weapon...and can be locked up for it.

a couple things to remember...

1. If you got out of your vehicle when I stop you you will be instructed to get back in your vehicle....if you fail to immediately get back in you will most likely be looking at the businees end of my .45.

2. Dont show an attitude!!! Law enforcement officers are testing you from the minute they pull behind your vehicle.....99.9% of people I arrest or issue citations to do not pass what is commonly refered to as the "attitude test"

 

[bruss01]

As best as I can tell, if an LEO asks, "Do you have firearms in the vehicle?" you should not respond with a "yes" or "no" - you should simply not answer the question. I could be wrong, but I don't think the refusal to answer this question can be used as probable cause to search your vehicle.

Wasn't there a thread a few weeks ago where Jeff White revealed that you can't refuse to speak to an officer? That it's considered "obstruction of justice"? And that the first thing an officer is going to wonder is "what does this guy have to hide? Hmmm, maybe I need to ask more questions, squint a little harder... see what I can do to "crack" this nut... " And you sure as HELL better hope you're more than 999 feet from a school, even the one's you didn't know were there. Otherwise you just committed a federal "gun crime".

Catch 22 - reveal the gun and put yourself thru hell for the sake of "officer safety", lie about the gun and risk a charge for "lying to the authorities" if the gun is discovered, or refuse to answer and risk either "obstruction" charges or an involuntary search. You can't win any of these ways, so the path of least resistance and maximum safety is to simply lie and say NO. It's the least risk and most beneficial to both yourself and the officer. At least in CA, it seems to me. If the gun is discovered after I've said "no" to his question, I can always say "well, yes, we had it in here the last time we went to the range, officer, but my wife said she unloaded the car when we got home... I guess she forgot this one, and I didn't know it was here until just now." (assuming, of course, plausible deniability - i.e. the gun is in a locked container in the trunk, unloaded, and not hanging on your belt).

Other than going directly to the range and directly home from the range, I have been too afraid of the consequences of just such an encounter to carry a gun, fully 100% legally in compliance with all federal, state and local laws in the car. If I get a ccw I may be emboldened enough to keep one in a locked box, unloaded and separate from the ammo. I would still tell my "white lie" if pulled over and asked if I have a gun in the car. I hope that Jeff White and others will keep this fact in mind, that the insistence on "officer safety" to ridiculous lengths and leaving citizens no way to gracefully "not cooperate", instead of encouraging honesty, actually accomplishes the reverse, dishonesty and non-cooperation.

 

[Cosmoline]

Wasn't there a thread a few weeks ago where Jeff White revealed that you can't refuse to speak to an officer? That it's considered "obstruction of justice"?

Refusal to incriminate yourself is not obstruction of justice. I read about that in this thing called the Bill of Rights. But mind, LYING can be so don't try it.

If you do not have a CCW permit and the weapon is not in plain view you are in the wrong...carrying a concealed weapon...and can be locked up for it.

Yes, that's the law in many states. All the more reason to shut your pie hole if you're on the line or over it by having a firearm secured somewhere in your car out of sight. There's no heroism in going to prison over some stupid anti-gun law.

Of course, none of this applies when you are actually packing. Then you MUST tell the officer and if you don't the weapon will be found in a routine pat-down. There's typically no need for prob. cause to pat you down. Also keep in mind in many states and cities they can and will impound your car for paperwork issues (proof of insurance, lapsed registration, license issues), at which point they can usually search it to some extent to "ensure safety."

If you keep your trap shut and they cuff you and haul you off, you should call your lawyer before you do anything else. The first thing he'll tell you is to say nothing. When he finds out you didn't tell them bo diddly he'll give you a special smiley face sticker for being his very best boy.

 

[Coronach]

1. Are you a CCW permit holder, and are you carrying the gun?

If the answer is yes, failure to inform (note: 'inform', not 'wait until they ask me') is a crime. You will lose your CCW permit. Assuming you are driving your own vehicle, they will have your status as a CCW permit holder before they approach your vehicle. If not, they'll have it once the run your DL.

2. Assuming you're not a CCW permit holder, and are legally carrying a trunk gun, a gun home from the range, etc:

I would answer any questions honestly. "Do I have a gun? Yes, it is unloaded in the trunk." If he asks to see it, I, personally, would say "I do not give you consent to search my vehicle." This forces his hand. If he searches the vehicle without your consent, go along with the program. We're a nation of laws, not men; fighting The Law at the roadside gets you arrested and possibly hurt, fighting The Law in court gets you money, and goes a heck of a lot further towards curbing the State's excesses. Make note of what jurisdiction pulled you over, what officer pulled you over, the location and the time.

Depending on what lead up to you being pulled over, he very well might have probable cause to search your vehicle sans consent. If you drive a red 1995 Chevy Lumina and one was just involved in an armed robbery down the road, he has reasonable suspicion to pull you over, and if you fit the description of the robber, he has PC to search the car. I, personally, have pulled over literally dozens of vehicles over the years that looked like the right car but weren't. Sometimes you realize this upon approach, sometimes it takes a little longer to determine that you have an innocent 3rd party. Regrdless, resisting the detainment sure does not help you, and it also doesn't help the poh-leece catch the bad guy.

If the cop searches your vehicle, ask him to explain why, afterwards. You declined consent, so asking for his rationale is a perfectly reasonable question. If he's a good cop and he had a good reason for searching, he should be able to explain what was going on, hopefully to your satisfaction. Do with this information what you wish; accept it and move on, call his supervisor, call Internal Affairs, call a lawyer. All of those are legal options available to you, and each of them is a better option than either lying or resisting.

3. Assuming you're carrying a weapon illegally:

You're on your own, bud. Sorry.

Mike

 

[Coronach]

Yes, that's the law in many states. All the more reason to shut your pie hole if you're on the line or over it by having a firearm secured somewhere in your car out of sight.

When the question "Is there a weapon in the car" is met with stony silence, that doesn't raise suspicions at all. Dude, just tell the truth. You're not doing anything illegal (the caveat to this is to know the local law and know you're not doing anything illegal).

There's no heroism in going to prison over some stupid anti-gun law.

Agreed.

None of this applies when you are actually packing. Then you MUST tell the officer and if you don't the weapon will be found in a routine pat-down.

Especially in Ohio. We're still working through th test cases on the CCW law, too, so this is unfun for all involved. If you're packing in a car, have it holstered, on your person, in plain sight, and the first words out of your mouth should be, "Officer/Trooper, I am a CCW permit holder and I am carrying my weapon. How do you wish to proceed?"

There's typically no need for prob. cause to pat you down.

Reasonable articulable suspicion that a crime has been committed and that a weapon was involved.

Also keep in mind in many states and cities they can and will impound your car for paperwork issues (proof of insurance, lapsed registration, license issues), at which point they can usually search it to some extent to "ensure safety."

It's called an inventory, and it is actually done to make sure, once you get your vehicle back, that the $15,000 car stereo and $10,000 Rolex watch that you left in the vehicle were not "stolen". Cops should note all valuables present in the vehicle (really valuable things might be placed in the property room for safekeeping, as this is safer than the impound lot), any damage to the vehicle, and anything obviously missing (stereo, etc) at time of impounding.

Mike

 

[Molon Labe]

Coronach:

So lets say I get pulled over for speeding. And other than that, I'm not breaking any laws whatsoever. Lets also assume I have a rifle in the trunk, and I am transporting it in a legal fashion.

Assume I respond as follows:

"Yes, I have a rifle in the trunk, and I am transporting it in a legal fashion. You do not have permission to search my vehicle."

Does this response give PC for the cop to search my vehicle?

 

[Sawdust]

1. Are you a CCW permit holder, and are you carrying the gun?

If the answer is yes, failure to inform (note: 'inform', not 'wait until they ask me') is a crime.

Again, this may be true in *your* state; however, this is not the case in California.

At least no one has ever been able to show me the section of the CA penal code where it is written that a CCW holder must inform.

Is it a good practice to inform? Yes, I would agree that it is good practice to inform...but not a legal obligation in California.

Sawdust

 

[bruss01]

If you get pulled over in CA, the officer already knows what handguns you own (registered ones, anyway) and if you have a CCW it's reasonable to believe he will know that before ever approaching your car. He's likely to assume that you have a gun, being that you own one or more, and especially likely if you have a CCW permit. Aren't computers wonderful?

 

[Coronach]

1. Are you a CCW permit holder, and are you carrying the gun?

If the answer is yes, failure to inform (note: 'inform', not 'wait until they ask me') is a crime.

Again, this may be true in *your* state; however, this is not the case in California.

At least no one has ever been able to show me the section of the CA penal code where it is written that a CCW holder must inform.

Is it a good practice to inform? Yes, I would agree that it is good practice to inform...but not a legal obligation in California.

The poster is in Ohio. I was answering the poster's question.

Mike

 

[Coronach]

So lets say I get pulled over for speeding. And other than that, I'm not breaking any laws whatsoever. Lets also assume I have a rifle in the trunk, and I am transporting it in a legal fashion.

Assume I respond as follows:

"Yes, I have a rifle in the trunk, and I am transporting it in a legal fashion. You do not have permission to search my vehicle."

Does this response give PC for the cop to search my vehicle?

No, with one word of caution; you don't know why you were pulled over. You assume it was for speeding. That's probably a safe assumption, but it is not always correct. Every innocent person I have pulled over in an investigatory stop (read: those in my example above) either assumed they had committed a traffic violation or had no idea why they were pulled over.

A refusal to consent to a search is never a reason to search a vehicle. Any cop that sends that up to a judge will lose that case, no questions asked. Now, can the admitted presence of a weapon in the vehicle, in conjunction with other facts (not necessarily known to you), add up to PC? Yes, it can. However, after the search the cop should be able to explain what those other facts were, when you asked him why he searched despite your decline of consent. If he refuses to explain or the explanaition does not meet with your satisfaction, ask to speak to his supervisor. If that doesn't work, try IA, or your lawyer.

As a street cop, I would prefer that you try a supervisor first. Some cops do the right thing but cannot explain coherently why they did what they did to laymen (ask any DA about that, they're fun on the stand- not). Supervisors can often translate from cop-speak to everyday english. Street cops are also often so lawsuit-wary that they think giving up as little info as possible is the way to avoid trouble, and supervisors usually have better sense about such things.

If that does not work, then by all means call IA or a lawyer.

Mike

 

[cropcirclewalker]

When the question "Is there a weapon in the car" is met with stony silence, that doesn't raise suspicions at all. Dude, just tell the truth. You're not doing anything illegal (the caveat to this is to know the local law and know you're not doing anything illegal).

This is so way cool.

I gotta hand it to the guys that sheparded the return of some of our rights in MO.

In Missouri if you have a MO permit it is in their computer. But MO also accepts any license from any other state and and there is no duty to provide the license unless specifically asked for it. I have an out of state permit. Stony Silence. Yes.

Further, they legalized concealed carry in an auto without permission slip if you were old enough and were otherwise not prohibited from possession. Stony silence, yes.

I guess here in MO, we still have the right to remain silent.

edited for speeling.

 

[wingnutx]

In AZ I am obligated to tell the cop that I am licensed and packing.

Of course, some cities here already have that info in the computer that they run my plates on. Pretty soon they all will.

 

[Molon Labe]

Thanks for the advice, Coronach.

After reading all the posts, I have come to the conclusion that I should simply not answer the question. If the LEO finds this suspicious, so be it.

 

[Mannlicher]

In Florida, you are legally required to answer. You are also required to answer if the cop asks about your haveing a CCW license.
Even if it were not required, what benefit acrues to you if you lie to a cop during the time when he 'ownes' you? During a stop, the cops are VERY concerned with their own safety. They will always ere on the side that protects them. This is not a bad thing, and you just have to expect it. In your AO, it may be ok to keep silent, but it will NOT benefit you.

 

[AirForceShooter]

God Bless Florida.

AFS

 

[EddieCoyle]

If you're packing in a car, have it holstered, on your person, in plain sight, and the first words out of your mouth should be, "Officer/Trooper, I am a CCW permit holder and I am carrying my weapon. How do you wish to proceed?"

This is exactly what I did both times that I was pulled over while carrying.

We are not obligated to inform here in Mass. In fact, so few people have concealed carry permits that it probably does not occur to most police officers to even ask the question. I've been pulled over dozens of times through the years and was never asked whether or not there were guns in the car.

I let them know when I'm packing because the last thing I want to do is to surprise a guy with a gun.

 

[Dolomite]

"There is nothing illegal in the car, sir/ma'am"

(?)

 

[Camp David]

There has been consensus in this thread about not lying to officer if asked:"Do you have firearms in the vehicle?"

Okay... what to say?

In my opinion: hand Driver's License to Officer, along with registration, when asked the question: "Do you have firearms in the vehicle?" DO not specifically answer question. Ask him/her instead: "What was I pulled over for?"

If asked again, "Do you have firearms in the vehicle?" repeat your question in reponse..."What was I pulled over for?"

In my opinion, I see this as a lose/lose situation whatever you answer, so this is case where answering a question with a question is called for...

Interesting thread nonetheless