KelTec Sub 2000 Impressions -- The Good and Bad of this Carbine

[Speedo66]

Thanks very much for the thread.
Ok so it sound like KelTec and HiPoint are kind of the lower rung, quality wise. Do any companies that are known for better quality have comparable models? (Sig, Ruger, etc)

I'm curious why you conclude that a few people's problems with Kel-Tecs and Hi-Points put them on the "lower rung".

Go to any thread here on specific guns and they will all have stories of problems with them with extremely few exceptions. Beretta pistols, carbines, Ruger pistols, Marlin rifles, Rossi, Sig .22's, Taurus, ect. Many threads here citing these and others having problems right from the factory. When I was looking for a decent .22 pistol, every high end manufacturer with the exception of Browning Buckmarks were talked out numerous times about having problems. Lower rung?

I don't think Hi-Point or Kel-Tec have any more problems than others, but I guess people like to point fingers because they're inexpensive.

I have had zero problems with my Sub2K, and I don't believe mine is unusual. Hi-Point owners rave about their carbines.

If lower rung means a good, reliable product for little money, then maybe they are.

 

[Jackal]

Ive had a Beretta Storm, a Ruger PC-9, a Keltec Sub2k. Now, I have a HiPoint and without a doubt, its the most reliable. Beretta was a jam monster, Ruger was horridly inaccurate (scoped 6moa), Keltec was a flimsy, jamming mess. Hipoint just works...and works...and works... Kinda the AK of the pistol cal carbine genre.

 

[Walkalong]

My Beretta Storm was very reliable and accurate, but did not fit me well. I sold it to partially finance my 9MM AR. As I posted, I am very happy with my Sub 2000. I have never shot the Hi Point, but I never read anything bad about them function or accuracy wise.

 

[bikemutt]

Sorry if I missed it in this thread but anyone here tried the JR Carbines 9mm?

 

[horsemen61]

I really like my sub2k I see it for what it is not what it's not I see it as a great little gun I can throw In My bag when I camp I can defend myself with it and at bow distances I'm sure my 180grain jhp will kill a deer cleanly heck my buddy killed a rabbit with it at 40 yards stock sights too he is a very good shot

 

[Paul7]

I'm curious why you conclude that a few people's problems with Kel-Tecs and Hi-Points put them on the "lower rung".

Go to any thread here on specific guns and they will all have stories of problems with them with extremely few exceptions. Beretta pistols, carbines, Ruger pistols, Marlin rifles, Rossi, Sig .22's, Taurus, ect. Many threads here citing these and others having problems right from the factory. When I was looking for a decent .22 pistol, every high end manufacturer with the exception of Browning Buckmarks were talked out numerous times about having problems. Lower rung?

I don't think Hi-Point or Kel-Tec have any more problems than others, but I guess people like to point fingers because they're inexpensive.

I have had zero problems with my Sub2K, and I don't believe mine is unusual. Hi-Point owners rave about their carbines.

If lower rung means a good, reliable product for little money, then maybe they are.

Its the old story if someone has a good experience they'll tell two people, if they have a bad one they'll tell ten. I've had bad experiences with 'good' gun companies such as Ruger, Kahr, and now have a new Colt GCNM back at Colt getting fixed. That doesn't mean they're bad companies.

 

[horsemen61]

After having owned the kel tec for a while I still enjoy it

 

[Elkins45]

While I find the carbine light and handy, I'm in my own league concerning the folding feature, and its lack of necessity, at least where I'm concerned.

You have to consider this feature in the context of when it was designed. The folding barrel design was a way around the 94-04 'assault weapon' ban that prohibited the manufacture of folding stock rifles that accepted detachable magazines. They couldn't make a gun with a folding stock so they made one with a folding barrel instead and the children were infinitely safer because of it.

I suspect even the designers think it's a silly design, but you have to give them credit for their ingenuity.

 

[Girodin]

I pretty much agree.

Kel-Tec is the king of innovative ideas that are executed by complete slackers.

I'd also whole heatedly agree with that. It is somewhat bearable when you are talking about a $300 carbine like the Sub2K. When you get to guns with the asking price of the RFB or the KSG it is laughable.

 

[Inebriated]

Neat concept and a useful carbine overall, but it’s a bit expensive when considering the poor quality of the construction.

And such is life as a Kel-Tec design.

 

[cpt-t]

I have had a KelTec Sub 2000 in a 40 cal and my friend has had one in 9mm for several years now. We bought both of them about the same time and have shot them a lot. His 9mm stays at my house more than it does his, so I shoot it more than he does. We have never had any problems with either one of them so far, feeds any thing we have tried in them. They are great to carry just out walking around and I take one with me on float trips in the summer, espically if we camp out for a night or two on some strange river bank, while we are passing thru. Most of the time just the Dog and I and the KelTec 40 cal and 4 29 round mag`s and a 40 cal Glock, in an old shoulder holster. Never had any real problems. If my friend ever sells his 9mm, I will be the one that buy`s it.
ken

 

[HexHead]

Thanks very much for the thread.
Ok so it sound like KelTec and HiPoint are kind of the lower rung, quality wise. Do any companies that are known for better quality have comparable models? (Sig, Ruger, etc)

Beretta has the CX4 Storm carbine. Uses 92 mags.

 

[greyling22]

I applaud keltec for being different and trying new designs, but I sure with they would give up trying to me a firearms manufacturer and just be a design firm. Seems to be what they are more interested in anyway. If they would sell or lease the sub2k design out maybe somebody would build a slightly better one.

 

[SP2000]

The 12# trigger is what made me dump the HiPoint. The KT trigger is much better.

 

[bikemutt]

My KelTec S2K 9mm runs like a champ, is surprisingly accurate and just plain fun to shoot. Its no family heirloom but nice to know it fits in a briefcase-sized bag and shares mags with my Glock 17.

 

[meanmrmustard]

You have to consider this feature in the context of when it was designed. The folding barrel design was a way around the 94-04 'assault weapon' ban that prohibited the manufacture of folding stock rifles that accepted detachable magazines. They couldn't make a gun with a folding stock so they made one with a folding barrel instead and the children were infinitely safer because of it.

I suspect even the designers think it's a silly design, but you have to give them credit for their ingenuity.

Usually when this carbine and the folding feature is discussed, I'm told that "I can carry it folded in a duffle bag that way!"

So can I too, with an AR collapsed.

 

[Ed Ames]

So can I too, with an AR collapsed.

Have you tried both? The sub2k UNFOLDED/readty to shoot is about the same size as an AR upper. Folded, the SUB2K is about 16" long vs. about 29" for an AR upper. A SUB2K will fit in a small slingpack like a Maxpedition Sitka that would have 10" of AR hangin' out the top. Plus the AR weighs at least half again as much.

I have both. I like both. When it comes to compact carry, the AR is not even close to competing with a SUB2K no matter how many pins you pop.

 

[Ramone]

With a 16" barrel, and an Upper reciever, an AR measures about 26" without a lower attached. The SUB2000 measures just a bit over 16" when folded.

no way an AR will fit in here:


(Standard Zero Halliburton Briefcase)

With Subsonic Loads, the muzzle flash and retort are so mild that I have now had three people on a range stop me to warn me that I'd just fired a squib- I think it's actually quieter than a .22LR.

Mine has been reliable for about 8000 rounds (TBH, I lost count at 6k). The few malfs have been easy to clear stovepipes.

A child can manage it- the only difficulty lies in getting the little brat to give it back. It's easy to maintain, and doesn't require any tools or trickery to field strip or reassemble. It'll shoot minute of paper plate at 100 yards all day long.

I tend to think of it as a Pistol Plus, rather than a Rifle Minus.

It fits in my saddlebags when I want to include a stop at the range with a motorcycle ride.

While not as cheap as .22LR, 9MM is the next cheapest, and not hard to find, and reloadable.

It's fun. I like it so much that I bought a GLOCK17 to go with it (my family and friends would have been less shocked if I showed up wearing a Tutu).

 

[meanmrmustard]

Weight of an AR is an issue? Can't say I've heard this before.

While I do appreciate smallish, handy arms, I do not realize the usefulness of folding a carbine to place in a carry-on bag/ suitcase/ Samsonite when I do not use these items. I can just as easily unzip a non-assuming duffel, extract my rifle chambered in a rifle round (while I agree a 9/40/45 from a rifle barrel is effective and lacks recoil worth noting, it takes a huge leap back from intermediate rifle cartridges) and get in the fight. My sons can strip, clean, load, charge, and fire ARs with alpomb. We don't really clean the Hi Point, it doesn't jam. Ever.

556 is also cheap, also reloadable, and also easy to find. I can also appreciate the recoil statements, but come on, when did 556 bruise your shoulder?

Its not for me: It came, it saw, it did not conquer. I found its stablemates, like Hi Point and JR carbines, to be superior in terms of everything minus weight. I still, after all my years of life, not found a reason or need to own a folding carbine with a bad trigger and inaccurate, unreliable tendencies.

 

[Ed Ames]

Weight an issue? If you have a choice between putting 4lbs in your backpack, or 6+lbs, I think 4lbs is going to be more pleasant to carry around. Especially if this is a "just in case" gun, and you aren't headed somewhere knowing you are going to be shooting. It isn't an issue at the range of course.

E.g. I have a case that holds a G22 and a SUB2K, with magazines that can be used in either, I also have a small AR case that holds a disassembled AR and two magazines. The G22+sub2k package is lighter. Guess which I tend to grab if going for a multi-day road trip.

If it wasn't for GCA '34 screwing up detachable shoulder stocks for pistols, I wouldn't own or recommend a SUB2K. A detachable shoulder stock is the product I actually want. However, I want it without all the BS involved in a tax stamp, e.g. filing a form with the feds if I want to take it to another state. So, thanks to a silly law, my detachable shoulder stock is an entire rifle. It's still very handy.

 

[meanmrmustard]

6+ pounds, if I consider extended range and power a fair trade off, which I happen to.

 

[Ed Ames]

To each their own.

I can't take the duffel bag AR-15 suggestion too seriously when you can get an SR-7.62. The 7.62 takes down just as easily as the -15 but is a real high power rifle instead of a prarie dog popper .22. Yeah, it weighs 2-3 pounds more than the -15, and the ammo is heavier and won't work in your pistol, but how much are you going to care if you actually end up needing a rifle? Those extra pounds will be forgotten faster than a muzzle flash dissipates.

 

[meanmrmustard]

To each their own.

I can't take the duffel bag AR-15 suggestion too seriously when you can get an SR-7.62. The 7.62 takes down just as easily as the -15 but is a real high power rifle instead of a prarie dog popper .22. Yeah, it weighs 2-3 pounds more than the -15, and the ammo is heavier and won't work in your pistol, but how much are you going to care if you actually end up needing a rifle? Those extra pounds will be forgotten faster than a muzzle flash dissipates.

Now, you're stretching, and seemingly contradicting yourself.

If your argument favors a folding carbine, then I'd say a Sub 2k is in order, especially if you find that feature useful. I do not.

Bringing enough gun is advisable, but you're now suggesting a rifle with a six pound weight gain in favor of a handy carbine. I'm confused? Were intermediate cartridge carbines/rifles not designed to bridge the gap between submachine guns and battle rifles, I.e: AR10, M14, Garand? All heavy.
So why begrudge an AR15 for a two pound trade of for a huge leap in range and power in favor of a full fledged rifle for the sake of proving a point?
I'll be the first to argue for PCCs apparent usefulness. But not folding. As it stands, I find the KT over priced and under developed.

Ps... The KT SU-16 I owned folded, and fired a more potent round, AND was lighter than an AR, but took readily available AR mags. Just an aside.

 

[Ed Ames]

I don't care about folding.

I care about being able to shoulder fire a reasonable (more destructive than .22LR, less than .338 Lapua) weapon with the minimal extra overhead compared to my basic load-out.

A Glock 22 (I'm familiar with it so that's my SUB2K-compatible example) is a reasonably concealable sidearm. It fires a cartridge I am satisfied with for a range of practical uses. However, I am unable to fire it as accurately as I would like due to the lack of a shoulder stock and limited sight radius.

My challenge is to increase the capabilities of that sidearm for the lowest overall cost. Now, obviously, if it weren't for GCA '34 I would simply buy a shoulder stock and that would be that. I can buy a Glock shoulder stock for $110. It weighs half a pound. It is all I want. There are a number of options like that. I could buy one today from Amazon. Sadly, with GCA '34 I would need to spend another $200 on a tax stamp to even posess the silly thing, and there are more hoops if I want to take it on road trips. I have chosen not to do that.

Next up we have Mech Tech carbine converters. These things weigh 5.3 lbs, are between 25" and 33" long, and require disabling the weapon (field stripping) to transition. They also cost $360

Finally, we have the SUB2K. Mine cost about $360 brand new (and parkerized), which is only $50 more than a shoulder stock+tax stamp, it weighs about 4lbs. It is about 16" long when stored. Transitioning to it does not disable my sidearm. It doesn't have NFA considerations (though it has feature considerations that keep it out of some states). In other words, it is about $250 and 3.5 pounds more than the solution I want (get rid of GCA '34 and let me buy a shoulder stock without all of the drama)...but it does offer one perk which is that it can be fired independently.

How about an AR? It adds another 2+ lbs just for the rifle. It needs its own magazines and ammo, figure another pound each or 2-3 pounds. It is physically longer by a good 7-8 inches in its minimum (taken down) size. It's also bleeping loud by comparison. It is just a really lousy substitute for a half pound shoulder stock.

Now I can hear you arguing that the AR is also a more capable rifle...but that wasn't the goal. A Glock 22 was capable enough for my needs, but I wanted to increase my accuracy and speed with the lowest total cost (including the cost of carrying something around, tax stamps, and so on). Arguing for more capability just means you lost track of my mission.

Plus there is a tactical mistake in an individual choosing a team weapon. The "intermediate" power cartridges are useful when combined with coordinated squad tactics. In other words, they were designed for a context of having a whole bunch of people working together. I am not a whole bunch of people. I don't command a whole bunch of people. The .223 has some practical use due to its limited penetration compared to heavier (even if slower) rounds, but in general it is a poor choice for my uses.

And, given that we are off the mission and the .223 is ill suited to individual needs outside of a limited envelope, you might as well go big. Get yourself a 7.62 or the like.

I don't see any of that as contradictory. Perhaps a bit reductio ad absurdum but not contradictory.

 

[B!ngo]

And such is life as a Kel-Tec design.

This is a company that is just itching for a takeover. Not one of those 'Chainsaw Al/Neutron Jack' takeovers but one in which most employees and most customers would be waaay better for it. Bulk up the design for manufacturing folks. Scale up and improve manufacturing and do something about their marketing because volume is the only way to succeed. Scale up the quality/testing folks. Don't screw up the product designers and ensure that they don't get 'focus group'd' into mediocrity.
These people today build 'concept cars' but for whatever reason they cannot build them well and/or build many of them. They are like the Tesla design team coupled with the Yugo manufacturing group. But the designs are just this side of brilliant.
I would love to see them succeed and they could be a shining light in an often dull industry. I do not know enough about the firearms business to do it or I would try to put something together myself. I live and work here in the silicon valley where these numbers don't look very big.
But please, someone, please do it, and don't screw it up.
B