KelTec Sub 2000 Impressions -- The Good and Bad of this Carbine

[Kiln]

I prefer the Kel Tec over the Hi Point any day. Hang out over on the Hi Point forums long enough and you'll see enough firing pin channel failures on guns with 2-3k rounds through them to change your mind on using one for a whole lot of shooting. Good news is that Hi Point has a great warranty and shipping rifles is much cheaper than shipping handguns because you don't have to overnight them.

I'd still prefer the Sub2000 personally.

 

[Speedo66]

My Sub2K fits in a laptop shoulder bag. This has become the normal, everyday, seen everywhere, no notice taken bag of our times. Comparing that to carrying around a full sized duffle bag? Come on, not even close.

Depending on where you live, it's much more expedient not to expose that you're carrying a gun. A laptop bag is invisible, nobody will notice.

My last couple of gun purchases have been made with this in mind. When I wanted a light .22 rifle, I bought a Marlin Papoose, another small take down gun.

Sadly, in many places today, to avoid turmoil, walking around with a visible firearm is just not done. The Sub2K can come out of a laptop bag and be ready to shoot in less time than it takes to read this sentence. An AR that's been broken down, not so fast.

 

[Girodin]

Usually when this carbine and the folding feature is discussed, I'm told that "I can carry it folded in a duffle bag that way!"

So can I too, with an AR collapsed.

The folded Sub2k is much smaller. Its really a laughable compariaon. Try putting that AR in a lap top case or the like. Aa noted above just an upper is longer. A sub2k will fit in things my 10.5 sbr won't. Now there are some other SBR options that have folding stocks that will but they are in a whole diffrent price range.

How did this spin into a 9x19, 5.55 7.62 debate. Use whichever makes you feel most comfortable in your fantasy land where you run around pulling rifles out of hiding from a duffle bag. Seriously, come on.

 

[Domino]

Thanks for the solid review, the Kel-Tec is a great little carbine. IMHO, it is one of the few pistol caliber carbines that is worth buying, provided it can be had for under ~$400. I had one for almost 10 years and it ran like a champ. It would eat steel case, brass, reloads, +P defense ammo, you name it. I only had an issue with ONE type of ammo and it was Brown Bear 145g HP which would not cycle in the gun, I don't think I had a single failure other than that with thousands of rounds fired.

That said, I got rid of mine during the last panic as I found a carbine that serves my purposes better and selling the S2k covered the cost of the other gun. While the Kel-Tec is very good for what it is, it isn't really versatile and is best left in its original configuration as a basic $300 carbine. Here are some old pics of mine...



Next to its replacement...




Why I sold the S2K...

 

[Skribs]

I've not personally owned a Kel-Tec, but your review seems pretty standard about what I've seen from other reviewers: they have great concepts, and they have terrible quality control. I've actually considered a sub-2k for myself, and your review tells me that it would work for what I want it for.

 

[meanmrmustard]

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The folded Sub2k is much smaller. Its really a laughable compariaon. Try putting that AR in a lap top case or the like. Aa noted above just an upper is longer. A sub2k will fit in things my 10.5 sbr won't. Now there are some other SBR options that have folding stocks that will but they are in a whole diffrent price range.

How did this spin into a 9x19, 5.55 7.62 debate. Use whichever makes you feel most comfortable in your fantasy land where you run around pulling rifles out of hiding from a duffle bag. Seriously, come on.

Why on Earth would I carry it in a laptop case? I don't even own a laptop, let alone use one, nor see the need to buy a case for one to conceal a folding carbine that I find subpar. I suppose in your "fantasy world", I'm running around pulling a folded carbine out of one? Rather than an AR from a duffel? That makes more sense?

Now, that's a laughable concept.

Edit to add: I suppose that when the can Origami one down to the rough size of a tablet, we will be in business. We've faded out the laptop at my home. Nothing I can do with one that I can't use the iPad for. Guess it's kinda the same concept, smaller IS better!

 

[meanmrmustard]

My Sub2K fits in a laptop shoulder bag. This has become the normal, everyday, seen everywhere, no notice taken bag of our times. Comparing that to carrying around a full sized duffle bag? Come on, not even close.

Depending on where you live, it's much more expedient not to expose that you're carrying a gun. A laptop bag is invisible, nobody will notice.

My last couple of gun purchases have been made with this in mind. When I wanted a light .22 rifle, I bought a Marlin Papoose, another small take down gun.

Sadly, in many places today, to avoid turmoil, walking around with a visible firearm is just not done. The Sub2K can come out of a laptop bag and be ready to shoot in less time than it takes to read this sentence. An AR that's been broken down, not so fast.

Carrying a shoulder laptop case in my parts gets you stared at more than what could be in it.

I carry my work uniforms and civvies in duffels, and use one near daily.

Assuming that a laptop case is universal is as blanketed as saying because I like Starbucks hot chocolate, I'm a coffee drinker. While not the best analogy, you see my point.

 

[hso]

No, KelTec isn't a lower rung company.

I've been personally pleased with every one of the KTs I've had and actually regret getting rid of my P11 (although the replacement PF9 is an even better pocketable 9mm).

They're not intended to be target or competition firearms, but they're excellent economic lightweight practical shooters.

 

[meanmrmustard]

No, KelTec isn't a lower rung company.

I've been personally pleased with every one of the KTs I've had and actually regret getting rid of my P11 (although the replacement PF9 is an even better pocketable 9mm).

They're not intended to be target or competition firearms, but they're excellent economic lightweight practical shooters.

While I do like the PF9, I've had some range time with the P11.

I'm not an extensive shooter of DA revolvers, but man, what a horrible bang switch on that P11! Trying to squeeze that made me feel less manly.

 

[Ed Ames]

Carrying a shoulder laptop case in my parts gets you stared at more than what could be in it.

I carry my work uniforms and civvies in duffels, and use one near daily.

The laptop bag is more commonly seen in everyday settings (in a booth at a restaurant, on a shoulder of someone walking down the street, etc) than duffel bags. Frankly, outside of obviously homeless people I can't think of the last time I saw a duffel bag next to someone in a restaurant... maybe in an airport terminal but that isn't really representative. I have seen a lot of laptop bags. The ratio is easily 1000:1.

Duffel bags are typically left in a car and are only normal at gyms. Even there a lot of people use smaller bags. What a blue collar worker uses to carry their uniform from their car to their locker isn't really relevant to the question of what you can carry around on the street without attracting attention.

 

[Paul7]

So what if an AR has longer range than the KT, even the police rarely engage beyond 50 yards. A 9mm +P out of a 16" barrel is in the ballpark of a .357 magnum. If 30 rounds of that won't help you, you've got much bigger problems. I don't need a battle rifle for HD, heck, some argue that the M4/5.56 isn't a battle rifle either, but that's another topic. This HD overkill is the same mindset that says you need a belted magnum to kill deer or elk.

 

[Speedo66]

Carrying a shoulder laptop case in my parts gets you stared at more than what could be in it.

I carry my work uniforms and civvies in duffels, and use one near daily.

Assuming that a laptop case is universal is as blanketed as saying because I like Starbucks hot chocolate, I'm a coffee drinker. While not the best analogy, you see my point.

Hmm, actually I don't, but whatever.

In my area, outside or at work, it's the laptop bag, messenger bag, etc. I never see anyone carrying a duffle bag.

Different strokes........

 

[Skribs]

I work in IT, so I see laptop cases a lot more than duffel bags in most places. The only place I see more duffel bags is at my TKD gym, and that's because we all have the same bag to carry our sparring gear.

If I saw someone walking with a duffel bag, my initial impression would be that he is moving. If I saw someone walking around town with a laptop case, my guess would be "hipster".

The big problem I see with a laptop case is that, while the case is more practical in size and is less likely to draw attention from most people, if I were a criminal, I would target the person with a laptop case over a duffel bag. If I were going to rob you, I would want to take the probably $500-5000 computer instead of smelly gym clothes (which is what I would assume is in each respective bag). While you could carry the Sub-2K and respond to an incident, if someone sneaks up on you and pulls a knife, there's no way your sub-2K is going to be ready before they stab you.

 

[Ed Ames]

While you could carry the Sub-2K and respond to an incident, if someone sneaks up on you and pulls a knife, there's no way your sub-2K is going to be ready before they stab you.

Yeah, that's what the pistol on my belt is for.

Speaking only for myself...

I have carried my sub2k in the same bag as my laptop, but I did it specifically when on multi-day trips. It wasn't to whip out in response to a sudden threat, it was to take into my hotel room, especially when traveling with not-gun-friendly people.

 

[ritepath]

I enjoy mine in 9mm....lots of fun to plink with but it sits most all the time in the safe these days. I don't think I've shot it since my son took a doe on youth day three years back.

 

[Girodin]

I suppose in your "fantasy world", I'm running around pulling a folded carbine out of one? Rather than an AR from a duffel? That makes more sense?

I'm not sure if you understood my points. I'll re-summarize:

Point 1: A folded sub 2K is very small. Smaller even than my SBR AR. I mention a lap top bag only as a tangible comparison as to that size difference.

Point 2: The idea of a civilian having to run around with a rifle in a bag and then be able to pull it out and use it in defense of self or others is for the most part fantasy. Carrying a concealed handgun is generally more practical. The desire to be able to carry a rifle in some kind of small more discreet bag may be reasonable for reasons outside of pulling it out in self defense whilst traveling down the street.

No, KelTec isn't a lower rung company.

They may not be the lowest rung but they are certainly a lower run when you start listing a bunch of companies. They are lowest rung among manufactures whose products I own. I have guns from over a dozen different manufactures. The difference in build quality between something from KAC, Noveske, AI, CZ, FN, Browning, HK and a kel tec offering is undeniable. Sure KT ranks above say Jiminez or the like. Looking across the spectrum I think it is fair to say they are lower rung based on my experience owning a number of them.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Nah, I understood your points, they were well written and quite clear.

I simply find them ludicrous for my purposes.
This 1000:1 ratio of laptop cases to duffel bag nonsense and that "homeless people carry duffel bags" (two statements you didn't write, adding for debate's sake) is plain wrong. Case in point: I had the family out and about the St. Louis Metro area in several different burbs this weekend. Malls, restaurants, several retail venues, etc. No one was carrying a laptop, case or otherwise.

There were, mind you in select places that would necessitate their use, several folks carrying some kind of top zip bag with shoulder straps.

I don't carry a duffel bag in normal day-to-day activity, but an AR in a duffel in my vehicle is discreet enough that I don't worry about theft or alarming a police officer for whatever reason. I conceal a handgun, that's a non issue, so I'm armed nearly all the time (couldn't get buy wearing a piece while I work) but no one would bat an eye if I had a top zipping bag, similar to what I use for transport of my work attire, work out clothing, or a "poor man's" range bag. See, I live in the corn belt, and no one, NO ONE carries a laptop case. Simple as that.

My point is: I personally, from my experience, do not find the Sub2K to be a generally good gun, and I do not find the method of chosen carry by fellow THR members for that gun ,should I hypothetically like the Sub2K, to be even remotely practical for my needs.

I will, however, agree with you that KT is a lower rung company. But, hey, what do I know? I don't use laptops anymore and own(ed) a Hi Point carbine.

 

[Ed Ames]

No one was carrying a laptop, case or otherwise.

Umm...you do realize that you don't actually need a laptop to carry a sub2k, right? So not seeing laptops is exactly 0% relevant to this discussion.

A "laptop bag" is any bag big enough to hold a laptop. Example:

It includes backpacks and about a dozen other styles of bag, and it is easily a 1000:1 ratio vs duffel bags.

 

[Robbins290]

i wish some company would mag a fold up carbine that was not a keltec. i love the idea. where it would take common pistil mags. but the look and feel of them makes it seem like a cheap chinese airsoft gun. i had a hi point and felt alot better

 

[meanmrmustard]

Umm...you do realize that you don't actually need a laptop to carry a sub2k, right? So not seeing laptops is exactly 0% relevant to this discussion.

A "laptop bag" is any bag big enough to hold a laptop. Example:

It includes backpacks and about a dozen other styles of bag, and it is easily a 1000:1 ratio vs duffel bags.

You are aware that not everyone carries it in a specified laptop case?

Backpacks? Makes a helluva lot more sense than a laptop case, seeing as how its pretty close to a duffel bag and all.

I'd like to see your info on this 1000:1 ratio, seeing as how we are now throwing backpacks into the mix, which is a shoulder carried soft bag...like a duffel/range bag/day pack. My bet is, you can't substantiate your claim.

All this back and forth. If you like carrying one in that manner, fine. But if you look back a few of my posts, you'll see where I've bowed out of this nonsensical argument with my opinion of the Sub2k in general: It is junk. Now, we can debate its prime carry container all day, but by the end of it, its still a subpar PCC. I'm sorry.

 

[ultratec1]

Camp 9.

I have been wanting to find one of the sub2000's but have yet to see one in a gun shop anywhere. I did find one at a gun show and it was outrageously priced ($700). I do however own a Marlin Camp 9 and that is without a doubt one of my funniest guns to shoot. It is extremely accurate out to 100yrds and has very little recoil. I dont see myself getting rid of that plinker.

 

[Ed Ames]

You are aware that not everyone carries it in a specified laptop case?

Who ever said they did?

Your claim was just that your AR-15 (which if it doesn't have a tax stamp is 9-10 inches longer and substantially heavier) can stash as conveniently as the SUB2K. When that was questioned you latched onto the word "laptop" and trying to say that laptops are obsolete. It's irrelevant to the topic at hand. An AR is substantially less convenient to carry.

Backpacks? Makes a helluva lot more sense than a laptop case, seeing as how its pretty close to a duffel bag and all.

Most (non-hiking) backpacks today have provisions for holding a laptop. As for closeness...these are all bags. They are ALL close. It'ls just a matter of size. Duffel bags are large. Backpacks range all over the place but are usually medium to small. Other bags range towards the smaller end. The SUB2K can fit in a smaller bag.

Nowadays my laptop bag is a 5.11 MOAB 10 sling pack. It is fairly small but holds a 15" laptop and all the odds and ends. It will also hold a SUB2K. At other times I have used an attache case, a messenger bag, a backpack with laptop sleve, a backpack without a laptop sleeve. I don't use a duffel bag because they are so large that a laptop would slide around and be damaged unless the whole bag was padded with clothes.

I'd like to see your info on this 1000:1 ratio, seeing as how we are now throwing backpacks into the mix, which is a shoulder carried soft bag...like a duffel/range bag/day pack. My bet is, you can't substantiate your claim.

Substantiate a personal observation? Sure: "I see a 1000:1 ratio of laptop bags to duffel bags.", said Ed Ames, continuing, "laptop bags are everywhere, and duffel bags are rarely seen outside of gyms." Disagree? You'd better have someone following me around with a clip board making note of all the bags I see.

All this back and forth. If you like carrying one in that manner, fine. But if you look back a few of my posts, you'll see where I've bowed out of this nonsensical argument with my opinion of the Sub2k in general: It is junk. Now, we can debate its prime carry container all day, but by the end of it, its still a subpar PCC. I'm sorry.

And that's a valid opinion...well, valid except you should misspoke slightly. You wrote "...its still a..." when you should have wrote, "I think it's still a..."

I don't share your opinion, but it doesn't bother me. A bunch of people think glocks and 1911s and CZs and name your brand are junk. I have heard hours-long blatherfests about how ARs are junk. Your opinion of the SUB2K fits right alongside all of those. Shoot, I think Toyotas are junk.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Okay, I apologize.

I FIND them to still be subpar carbines. Better?

As for a personal observation, one would think you'd have kept recorded data backing the "personal observation" and/or claim of a lopsided ratio of laptop cases to duffel bags. Purses are bags, back packs are bags, and I do not see how there is a 1000:1 ratio, when I don't see anyone carrying laptop cases...regardless of what is in it.

My claim was indeed that an AR could be carried as easily. I stand by that. If I pull an AR from my bag or trunk or backseat or whatever, its ready to go. I'm not relegated to unzipping "insert electronics case of choice here", unfolding, and charging the blasted thing. The statement I made about the supposed obsolete nature of the laptop is relevant: If very few people if any still lug a laptop around, I'd think I'd look suspicious, or draw someone's attention at least. Maybe the wrong person. My kids backpacks do not have laptop provisions, guess I'm not spoiling them enough. As for bag size, duffel is a relative term, and they can be big, small, everything in between. One large enough for an AR with collapsible stock mustn't be THAT big to be unwieldy or otherwise draw any more attention than a laptop case.

I'm not homeless. I use shoulder carried bags in public, and no one bats an eye. Two pounds is a non issue for me, I'm fit and can hack it, but the carbine still collapses to a manageable size. I like that trade-off for a good, reliable carbine with more power and a familiar operating system that is the AR. If i could shrink down a Hi Point, I'd still carry that over the Sub2k. But, please, don't suggest a HP pistol. That's just wrong.

 

[Ed Ames]

You find, you think, your opinion. I find Toyotas to be subpar automobiles. They seem poorly made and poorly designed to me. What does our opinion matter? They work, people seem happy with them, who cares what we think? Same with your opinion of the SUB2K.

Though I must admit the first time I saw a HP pistol I started laughing. I'm sure the other folks at that gun show thought I was crazy but it was just the funniest thing I had seen all week. That isn't a comment on its usability, but the massive slide needed to make a blowback .45 ACP makes for one funky looking gun.

Anyway...I suspect you would see 1000:1 ratio of laptop bags to duffel bags if you weren't looking for the word "laptop" stamped on the outside. A laptop bag is any bag which can carry something the size of a laptop without much room to slide around. Laptops are flat objects typically about 16" long on the longest dimension. For years I carried a laptop bag that ws made in the 1940s, decades before the first laptop. A laptop bag can be single-strap, double-strap, no strap, soft, hard, padded, unpadded. A folded SUB2K is rougly the size of a laptop so any bag suitable for laptop carry is also suitable for SUB2K carry.

As for an AR being carried as easily...that's kinda like my arguing that a gov't size 1911 concealing as easily as a subcompact 9mm. I wouldn't do that because it isn't true, but I would argue that most people can conceal either successfully. If your argument is that most people can discreetly carry either one, I'd go along with that...but having done both, I think the shorter taken-down length of the SUB2K makes it a winner over a standard AR for carrying discreetly.

Shoulder bag does not equal duffel bag. A duffel bag is far more specific than a laptop bag. It is cylindrical (though modern versions can be more square) and has an open main compartment. Traditionally they have a draw string closure on one end but modern versions usually have a zipper down the side. They have fairly standard sizes and a 28" long duffel is typically going to be about a foot in diameter. That's a large volume relative to a taken down AR.

 

[meanmrmustard]

You lost me at car analogies bro.

If you want it, buy it. Own it? Then love it.

Not my cup o' tea.