What to do against a grappler...

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Avalanche2082

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what do you do if you are carrying your firearm for sd and a grappler attacks you, what are some good stratgies to deal with that? Those people are very quick and can grab you at the ankles take you down to the ground and choke you out in a matter of seconds. Maybe you could wear some spike dog collars around the areas they grab you at or something:D
 
Unless you're skilled on the ground and you're in damn good shape, one word - knife.

Biker
 
Stay away

Grapplers are good. You do not want to be touched, or be anywhere within jumping distance. A good grappler can have you down and permanently disabled very, very quickly. Even a mediocre grappler can get the job done if you don't know exactly what's going on.

As regards the comment concerning a knife...don't count on it. These people are FAST, and you'd better know how to use that knife.

Regarding grapplers, either dead, or a long way away. Not really any middle ground. Watch MMA people go at it, or better yet, try it out for a couple weeks so you at least have some idea of what it looks/feels like.

Good question.
 
Oh, also, chokes can take a bit of time. It's a lot easier to destroy a joint.
 
Been there, Tosler. Knew how to use it. At that range, don't take much.

Give him the neck or lock and reach to your four o'clock or small of the back with with either hand and commence to cuttin' - anywhere.

It works.

Biker
 
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What tosler said, get some training in empty hand and then get an idea of how fast it can flow down hill. Even taking one of those classes at the local rec department will give you the appreciation for a decent price and help you decide whether to pursue it or not.

Overall the one instinct you have to deal with in a grappel situation is get inside the OODA of the other guy instantly, otherwise you are dead.

John
 
That’s an interesting question. If you knew in advance they were a skilled grappler and intended to kill you, you’d probably be justified in using a firearm or knife. If you don’t know in advance, there’s a chance you just shot an unarmed relatively harmless man. I’ve been training in western boxing; my hope would be to deliver enough damage before the fight could go to the ground. Ideally, you could find a dojo that teaches Brazilian Jujitsu and devote enough time and study so that you become competent on the ground. I’ve never had the occasion to fight a grappler; perhaps people who are actually skilled fighters possess the discipline not to engage in antagonistic behavior.

Sorry to veer off on a tangent, but what do think the odds are of having to defend yourself against a skilled fighter, as opposed to a common criminal? Just a thought,

Regards
 
If your watching your P's and Q's and someone grabs you you can assume its for real. ANY fight needs to be treated as a life or death situation. Unless you are skilled and in good shape I think Biker has as good a cure as any. You should try real hard not to let someone get that close. These street altercations are nothing to look forward too. I had my share in my younger days and damn near didn't survive some of those. I wouldn't last 15 seconds in a real knock down drag out fight now and would bet most on this forum are in about the same shape.

Jim
 
Biker's right. I've been stabbed and cut, fortunately not deeply and not in vital areas because I knew how to keep 'em away. It can take the fight right out of you if you're not mentally prepared.
 
A good "street" grappler is looking for a knife or gun to come out, or for dirty tricks such as eye gouging, finger breaking, etc. Don't forget, they can also employ these weapons and tactics. For example, if you're on the ground and a grappler sees your right hand drop towards a pocket or holster, they would instinctively apply a kimura and snap your arm like nothing. When someone drops their arm like that (armed or not) grapplers are trained to employ this technique. Bas Rutten told an awesome story about some hecklers at a seminar of his laughing at a rear naked choke. The hecklers apparently said that they could easily get out of the choke by poking out his eyes. Bas told them, "Okay, I want to try this out, so let me put you in the choke and when you try to poke me, I'm going to snap your neck." Pray you don't fight a guy like that and that he will allow you to access your weapons.
 
ground technique

buttheadnads.jpg
 
what do you do if you are carrying your firearm for sd and a grappler attacks you, what are some good stratgies to deal with that? Those people are very quick and can grab you at the ankles take you down to the ground and choke you out in a matter of seconds. Maybe you could wear some spike dog collars around the areas they grab you at or something
Click to expand...


Travelling with another armed person is a good bet. I know it's not always an option.
 
I just got done with PUC/ECQC tonight & as the only guy there who hadn't taken it before & being one of two guys with near zero hand to hand skills I got man-handled almost every time.

Lessons:
I shouldn't let someone get hands-on
Get some good grappling/clinch training
Criminals travel in packs
Sometimes there are no good answers, but there's usually a good-enough answer
Keep looking for an opening, even if you can barely move, a slight shift might make all the difference
A knife can help, IF you know how to use it & can get it deployed
WEAPON RETENTION
I have a lot to learn
PUC is a good intro class to get people interested in the more intense stuff
 
Don't let them get your leg/legs, if they shoot in on you employ a sprawl( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprawl_(grappling) ). Just keep your feet back and push their face/shoulders into the ground. DO NOT attempt to kick a grappler, they will just grab a single and take you to the ground. USE UPPERCUTS- a sharp uppercut will bring the person back up to eye level.

If they do shoot in for a take down you can use both your arms(at the elbow) to catch their shoulders and pull them up away from your legs. If you have the timing you could pop them in the face with a knee when they shoot but timing is key and you will get taken down if you don't catch them(and probably even if you do.)

Learn the "guard" it is a Brazilian jui-jitsu position for ground fighting. It can be employed fairly easily as a defensive position but is harder to transition to offensive maneuvers. Here is an explanation of "the guard" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guard_(grappling)

It's easy to read about these things but to really grasp the concepts you need to practice them in a ground spar or take a BJJ class. Judo would also be a go source if you wanted to stay on your feet(weapon retention too). In judo they practice a lot on balance COG(center of gravity). Also check around to see if there are any Krav Maga schools near you ( http://www.kravmaga.com/locations.asp) they teach a lot about weapon retention.
 
OK, good answers but what if you have no training or you are physically unable, what can you do with your gun, or I know this will look weird if wearing it but the gothic type kids wear spike bracelet and imagine trying to choke someone with one of those if you were to wear one.

Quick question didn't want to start another thread, are you pretty much owned if someone pulls 2 guns out on you, how can you defend against that, just move, shoot and try to live?
 
Quick question didn't want to start another thread, are you pretty much owned if someone pulls 2 guns out on you, how can you defend against that, just move, shoot and try to live?
Click to expand...

I know a simple take-away for two guns. It's totally useless in real life (since in the history of the whole wide world no one outside the movies has ever pulled two guns at once ... well, maybe they have but I've sure never heard of it happening). Anyway, I can do it, take both the guy's guns away -- provided he's in arm's reach of course. But it's a useless skill because it's just never ever happened in real life.

So why do I know how to do that?

Well ...

Massad Ayoob taught me how, in LFI-2. He even said it was useless when he taught it to us. So why'd he teach his students how to take two guns away, when pretty much in the whole history of the world outside Hollywood no one has ever pulled two guns at once on someone else?

Because, he said, whenever you teach someone how to do the basic disarms, there will usually be some guy in the back who has Hollywood disease, and wants to know how to counter this totally unlikely move. Rather than spending twenty minutes or more of class time arguing over whether this totally unlikely, never-has-happened-yet scenario is really, truly that unlikely, it's a lot simpler to just demo the move, and push on.

So he did.

:D

pax
 
"OK, good answers but what if you have no training or you are physically unable, what can you do with your gun,"

If you have a gun and they are attacking you, shoot them. Seriously, keep your off hand extended to hold them at bay and shoot them(preferably not through your off hand) until they aren't a threat anymore. This is pretty much common sense is it not?

I mean sure, are you going to be justified in doing this? Thats a question you'll have to answer for yourself and probably pretty quickly. Do you fear for your life? Could you have handled the situation without using deadly force? Who started the confrontation? Try not to put yourself in a position to be attacked. Use verbal judo i.e... "I don't want any trouble", "I've called the police", etc. Don't try and be a bad ass, walk away, if they continue to come at you do what you have to do.

"Quick question didn't want to start another thread, are you pretty much owned if someone pulls 2 guns out on you, how can you defend against that, just move, shoot and try to live?"

Paranoid fantasy land scenario #348274. If someone has 2 guns drawn on you and you have no cover or weapon of your own, your screwed. What you would have to decide is; do they really want(and are capable) to shoot me dead? If not, then do what your told. If so, then your as good as dead and might as well make a move. Try to distract them or knock their guns away while acquiring yours and go for a head or CNS shot. If theres space between you and him keep moving unless(or until) you have cover.
 
Let me just say this... MMA is the new "Bruce Lee". They are no more dangerous than anyone else. What you see in the MMA / UFC matches are just another RULE BASED martial art put in an arena where it is allowed to shine. The point is, in the MMA matches, there are rules. First take a look at the ring, it is padded and the fighters are wearing pads on the fists, wrists. Second, you are not allowed to grab “the cage”, gouge eyes, rabbit punch (punch to back of head), et cetera.

In a “real fight”, there are no rules. We have all heard this 10,000 times and that is the point. If someone tries to grapple, or rushes you GRAB THEIR EAR AND RIP IT OFF, GOUGE THEIR EYES, PUNCH IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD, et cetera.

When you watch MMA, you are basically watching a SHOWCASE for that fighting. Yin and Yang buddy. EVERYTHING has strengths and weaknesses and is constantly moving from a position of strength to a position of weakness all the time. Study human anatomy, practice punching those vulnerable areas. Practice drawing and getting your knife and gun into action with each hand. REMEMBER, PRACTICE, THINK about what you would do and when you would do it. Do this all the time and you have a HOPE of stopping a violent encounter. It doesn’t matter if he is an MMA star or a thug, the action happens so fast, if you are not conscious of the weapons you have and how to react, you will not make it out, hell read the thread Jeff White put up on guns being "magic". There are loads of times when Gunfighters, dangerous men in their own right, got killed. Read how John King Fisher and Ben Thompson, both very well known and very dangerous gunmen, got killed. Basically, someone distracted them and then two people ran up and stuck a gun both John's ear and Ben's ear and pulled the trigger.

Mad Eye Moody from Harry Potter says "CONSTANT VIGILANCE!!" I couldn't have said it better myself.
 
Let me just say this... MMA is the new "Bruce Lee". They are no more dangerous than anyone else. What you see in the MMA / UFC matches are just another RULE BASED martial art put in an arena where it is allowed to shine. The point is, in the MMA matches, there are rules. First take a look at the ring, it is padded and the fighters are wearing pads on the fists, wrists. Second, you are not allowed to grab “the cage”, gouge eyes, rabbit punch (punch to back of head), et cetera.
Click to expand...

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! Dirt, rocks, two-by-fours, bricks. All can be our friends. Mr. Eye, meet Mr. Swift Poke With A BIC Pen.

For example, if you're on the ground and a grappler sees your right hand drop towards a pocket or holster, they would instinctively apply a kimura and snap your arm like nothing.
Click to expand...

Oh really? Have you ever snapped an arm like nothing? Against someone actively resisting? It's not as easy as it sounds...

(Jack, who has been in a few "heated discussions"...)
 
ive been in MANY fights, part of it was with the line of work. ive also worked as a club bouncer and sparred against many wrestlers. I have yet to ever be taken to the ground and had any grappling techniques be successful against me. Take this how you want, say what you want but facts speak for themselves. Ive taught my wife closed fist kempo and watched her DOMINATE men 85lbs heavier than her on EVERY occasion. (military including 2 army rangers) Grappling is over-rated and in most cases a joke.

Modern ju jitsu is a complete waste of time, it was originally designed by samurai to be used in conjuction with weapons, it also relied heavily on striking (kempo) and were ALWAYS including such weapons as the tanto (dagger) and the chain... so to try and say that a grappler is a "dangerous adversary" is bs. As long as you keep your balance and stay standing as soon as someone grabs you THEY are at the disadvantage.
 
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