Bill Hickok's "toys" killed many men. And they were only .36 caliber guns. The .44s in the Civil War had even less trouble stopping men. Remember that John Wilkes Booth was shot through the neck, and instantly paralyzed, with a Colt Army revolver.
Why do you store your BP guns loaded?
- Thread starter Packman
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Joe Demko
Member
I don't think anybody disputes that they are dangerous. I'm still waiting to hear a good reason to prefer one over a modern cartridge weapon for self-defense.
arcticap
Member
Joe Demko said:
I don't keep one loaded but there's good reasons why some folks do prefer them over cartridge guns.
When people shoot them a lot then they become familiar with them and trust them. They come to know and trust their accuracy and reliability. They can load and inspect the components themselves which they can't do with factory ammo. No matter how much is paid for factory ammo, no one knows if any cartridge will fire when the trigger is pulled. If the modern gun is a semi-auto then that misfire can become even more problematic.
If anyone thinks that's not true, then there are plenty of true stories about crooks who have pulled the trigger during a crime and their modern gun didn't fire due to a myriad of reasons.
I've had a single action cartridge revolver lock up during the cocking process which prevented it from being able to fire. The cartridge started to back out from the chamber and it got hung up on the interior of the frame preventing the cylinder from turning which locked up the action. So don't think that it can't happen with any gun. That was simply due to the fault of there being a cartridge.
For the folks who don't own modern guns, then a cap & ball becomes their primary weapon. Maybe it's the cost, or the red tape or whatever other reason. That simply means that they made their choice which in that case becomes a good enough one.
Doesn't anyone ever wonder why more crooks don't use cap & ball revolvers to commit crimes? They would sure be a lot less complicated, more economical and easier for them to get.
There's certainly something good to be said when a person exercises their personal preference. After all, what better reason does a person need? C&B's exist, they work and people love them so they use them. After all, most of the Amish prefer to use horse power and they get around just fine. And some could argue that they can get around even better.
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Joe Demko
Member
One can be as familiar with a modern weapon as a replica C&B, so that is a non-issue. The odds of a premium centerfire cartridge failing to fire in a modern gun in good repair are vanishingly small. The odds are higher, I'd say, of a cap failing to detonate or a cap fragmenting and binding up the gun (or putting out one of your eyes).
I've owned and shot flintlocks, caplocks, c&b revolvers, and in-lines. I'll never say that blackpowder weapons aren't lethal or that they don't work. I've taken a number of deer with blackpowder weapons. I have to agree, though, that self-defense is very serious business. It is not the place to indulge an affectation. When my life is on the line, or even more importantly that of my daughter, I want every edge I can give myself. This means the most reliable gun/ammo combo, low-flash powder, high performance projectiles, a high-intensity light source, and so on.
I indulge in my own affectations involving times gone by, but not when it comes to self-defense. If I want to feel connected to the past, I shave with a brush, bowl, and safety razor. As for the Amish, there's plenty of them here. They get around okay locally in their buggies, but I note that there's "Englishmen" making themselves quite a nice living driving vanloads of Amish to Walmart, doctor's appointments, etc. Also kind of hard to overlook that most every one of the Amish communities around here has a little general store run by "Englishmen" within easy buggy range. The goods delivered to those stores arrive in trucks powered by internal combustion engines.
I've owned and shot flintlocks, caplocks, c&b revolvers, and in-lines. I'll never say that blackpowder weapons aren't lethal or that they don't work. I've taken a number of deer with blackpowder weapons. I have to agree, though, that self-defense is very serious business. It is not the place to indulge an affectation. When my life is on the line, or even more importantly that of my daughter, I want every edge I can give myself. This means the most reliable gun/ammo combo, low-flash powder, high performance projectiles, a high-intensity light source, and so on.
I indulge in my own affectations involving times gone by, but not when it comes to self-defense. If I want to feel connected to the past, I shave with a brush, bowl, and safety razor. As for the Amish, there's plenty of them here. They get around okay locally in their buggies, but I note that there's "Englishmen" making themselves quite a nice living driving vanloads of Amish to Walmart, doctor's appointments, etc. Also kind of hard to overlook that most every one of the Amish communities around here has a little general store run by "Englishmen" within easy buggy range. The goods delivered to those stores arrive in trucks powered by internal combustion engines.
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arcticap
Member
Joe Demko said:
arcticap said:
If one reason is not good enough, then how about two?
arcticap said:
Why should folks buy premium ammo when they can use a cap & ball and have better reliability? Everyone should know that misfires aren't always caused by the ammo but are sometimes caused by the gun.
Muzzle flash? Centerfires have muzzle flash in the dark too.
The point is being missed about horse power.
The point is that a horse can go places where an auto can't. That's a testament to the freedom of being able to purchase a cap & ball revolver largely free from government regulation and the need for factory made ammo and components which are like needing to buy gasoline.
What's next, questioning why anyone would choose to defend themself with a flintlock?
I say more power to them. We all know that they work just fine.
What makes anyone think that the bad guy will always have a gun that's better than yours? Some bad guys don't carry a gun at all, and not everyone has $500 to spend on a gun and ammo or wants to. And why should they, because someone else says so?
How a person chooses to defend himself is a matter of personal honor and preference. To ignore the truth and logic about the shortcomings of modern cartridge guns is like trying to deny someone their honor and their honorable right to have a personal preference different from another's.
So let's not be argumentative when the question has already been truthfully answered.
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ROAshooter
member
Thank you Arcticap.......a very good post......over the years....I can honestly say I have accumulated....more misfires/misfeeds/jamups.... from modern ammo......than my bp's......needless to say....was not during a gunfight....
Joe Demko
Member
No. We don't, in fact, know that. Before I accept that a c&b replica is actually more reliable than a modern cartridge gun, I want proof. Proof is, unfortunately, going to have to consist of more than assertions from blackpowder ethusiasts. You did, btw, assert exactly that.
I have read more accounts of percussion pistols misfiring in combat than centerfire.
That's why these were popular, all the way through the percussion period.
If you want to rely on a BP firearm for your life, well its your life and your decision.
But don't forget the cutlass. You may need it.
That's why these were popular, all the way through the percussion period.
If you want to rely on a BP firearm for your life, well its your life and your decision.
But don't forget the cutlass. You may need it.
ROAshooter
member
slamfire........dont want to go there......I do have a sword in the closet.....imagine being a burgular.....met by a naked old man with a sword......
arcticap
Member
Usually the crook forgets to flip the safety switch or to load the chamber.
But the bottom line becomes which gun does the person shoot better in their own opinion, and which one do they feel the most comfortable with.
Once that is determined then all of the other C&B problems can be overcome. C&B's can be loaded to be just as reliable as any modern gun, which then turns self defense mostly into a matter of who will be able to hit their target first.
But the bottom line becomes which gun does the person shoot better in their own opinion, and which one do they feel the most comfortable with.
Once that is determined then all of the other C&B problems can be overcome. C&B's can be loaded to be just as reliable as any modern gun, which then turns self defense mostly into a matter of who will be able to hit their target first.
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Carl N. Brown
Member
I don't store any gun loaded. I have seen one guy in the 1970s bring an unwanted heirloom to a gunshop, and another guy do the same at a gun show a couple of years ago, both guns loaded unknown to the heirs. It is bad policy to store guns loaded.
A gun kept loaded as a self defense weapon should be under the owner's direct control, not stored in the sense it could be found by someone unaware of its status, and if it is not under the owner's direct control it should be unloaded.
A gun kept loaded as a self defense weapon should be under the owner's direct control, not stored in the sense it could be found by someone unaware of its status, and if it is not under the owner's direct control it should be unloaded.
Carl N. Brown
Member
By the way....
Not only have I heard it pronounced "burgular" I have heard it pronounced "bur-gurg-ular".
Not only have I heard it pronounced "burgular" I have heard it pronounced "bur-gurg-ular".
JanZ
Member
Just my.02
If BP/Cap n Ball is all you have do what you need to do as there's no denial they are deadly weapons.
Personally I'd not be inclined to leave a cap and ball gun loaded as a home defense gun nor would I attempt to use one as a HD weapon unless it was a case of last resort.
I do have a Ruger old Army with a 45 ACP conversion cylinder which would work but I'd really prefer to grab the M9 loaded with lots of Cor Bon's than the ROA.
However #1 for home defense the 12 GA short barrel pump shotgun with open choke is hard to beat, duck or goose loads are very, very effective at close range.
No need for buckshot or slugs as you are not at war with your close neighbors.
A pistol or revolver is a good second pick...Provided you can actually shoot it under difficult conditions and have practiced enough to instinct or point combat shoot effectively at 15-25 feet you are probably better off with the scatter gun.
If BP/Cap n Ball is all you have do what you need to do as there's no denial they are deadly weapons.
Personally I'd not be inclined to leave a cap and ball gun loaded as a home defense gun nor would I attempt to use one as a HD weapon unless it was a case of last resort.
I do have a Ruger old Army with a 45 ACP conversion cylinder which would work but I'd really prefer to grab the M9 loaded with lots of Cor Bon's than the ROA.
However #1 for home defense the 12 GA short barrel pump shotgun with open choke is hard to beat, duck or goose loads are very, very effective at close range.
No need for buckshot or slugs as you are not at war with your close neighbors.
A pistol or revolver is a good second pick...Provided you can actually shoot it under difficult conditions and have practiced enough to instinct or point combat shoot effectively at 15-25 feet you are probably better off with the scatter gun.
arcticap
Member
The original post asked:
Notice that Packman asked why people store their BP guns loaded and not why they do not store their BP guns loaded. Nor does he ask what else folks would rather use for self defense. If some folks don't want to acknowledge that other folks prefer to keep their BP guns loaded for self defense and simply want to disagree and criticize what others chose to do, then why do they want to hijack the thread?
Everyone already knows that there are 1000's of alternatives for self defense, but the OP simply wants to know why some folks do store their BP guns loaded.
What does choosing to use a smokeless shotgun or a center fire handgun for self defense have to do with answering that question?
Nothing at all since that doesn't even come close to addressing the original question and misses the point entirely.
Packman said:
Notice that Packman asked why people store their BP guns loaded and not why they do not store their BP guns loaded. Nor does he ask what else folks would rather use for self defense. If some folks don't want to acknowledge that other folks prefer to keep their BP guns loaded for self defense and simply want to disagree and criticize what others chose to do, then why do they want to hijack the thread?
Everyone already knows that there are 1000's of alternatives for self defense, but the OP simply wants to know why some folks do store their BP guns loaded.
What does choosing to use a smokeless shotgun or a center fire handgun for self defense have to do with answering that question?
Nothing at all since that doesn't even come close to addressing the original question and misses the point entirely.
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Joe Demko
Member
Chill. Or report some folks to the mods. You are as responsible for this thread drifting as anybody. A sudden passion for narrow focus on the OP is a poor substitute for the proof I asked you to provide re: your assertions of greater blackpowder reliability.
MCgunner
Member
Personally, I won't argue that modern cartridge weapons are inferior to BP guns for self defense. Also, BP guns of capable caliber are not normally as concealable as a J frame or a subcompact pocket 9x19. I haven't seen the military trading in their M9s for 51 Colts, either, nor any police departments. My Super Companion is really the only cap and ball gun I find utility in for carry. It's small and has advantages over its cartridge counterparts.
I love BP revolvers because they're FUN, not really because they have any real utility over my cartridge guns. Hey, I don't need to justify owning and shooting them, only need to ENJOY owning and shooting them. Ain't that enough? I have thought about hunting with the ROA, but hell, why bother when I have a .357 and .45 Colt Blackhawk and a TC Contender in .30-30?
Now then, I have my flame suit on....
Also, BP guns of capable caliber are not normally as concealable as a J frame or a subcompact pocket 9x19. I haven't seen the military trading in their M9s for 51 Colts, either, nor any police departments. My Super Companion is really the only cap and ball gun I find utility in for carry. It's small and has advantages over its cartridge counterparts.I love BP revolvers because they're FUN, not really because they have any real utility over my cartridge guns. Hey, I don't need to justify owning and shooting them, only need to ENJOY owning and shooting them.
Ain't that enough? I have thought about hunting with the ROA, but hell, why bother when I have a .357 and .45 Colt Blackhawk and a TC Contender in .30-30?Now then, I have my flame suit on....
oneiron
Member
Modern smokeless powder break down over time. Black powder has been loaded in cartridges and were viable after one hundred years.
I keep both of my converted 45 cal revolvers as well as my 44 cal carry and by 38 cal backup along with two rifles and one shotgun loaded at all times. Weapons available in every room of the house. You never know when you are going to need to fill your hand.
I keep both of my converted 45 cal revolvers as well as my 44 cal carry and by 38 cal backup along with two rifles and one shotgun loaded at all times. Weapons available in every room of the house. You never know when you are going to need to fill your hand.
junkman_01
member
Boy, Sardis GA must be a wild place!
Joe Demko
Member
Truly, a deciding factor when it comes to choosing a personal defense weapon.
Packman
Member
Well, hasn't this gotten interesting since I was here last...
Since there's been an inquiry as to the original intent of the thread, I'll explain. I was reading a large number of posts in which people discussed keeping their BP guns loaded. I just became curious as to the overall motivations behind this. I wasn't real interested in starting an argument over their viability for self defense, or a bashing of smokeless powder.
I don't keep mine loaded, but if you want to, that's totally cool with me. I was just curious as to why. No judgments passed. I did find the (several year old) thread about carrying the BP NAA Companion as a personal defense weapon pretty interesting, with some neat points.
No need for everyone to get testy.
Since there's been an inquiry as to the original intent of the thread, I'll explain. I was reading a large number of posts in which people discussed keeping their BP guns loaded. I just became curious as to the overall motivations behind this. I wasn't real interested in starting an argument over their viability for self defense, or a bashing of smokeless powder.
I don't keep mine loaded, but if you want to, that's totally cool with me. I was just curious as to why. No judgments passed. I did find the (several year old) thread about carrying the BP NAA Companion as a personal defense weapon pretty interesting, with some neat points.
No need for everyone to get testy.
Packman
Member
Yep, that made my day!
JanZ
Member
Not to mention the huge cloud of smoke that will either allow you to...
A. Reload, B. Take up a better firing position, C. Shoot again or D, Run out the back while he, they can't see you.
A. Reload, B. Take up a better firing position, C. Shoot again or D, Run out the back while he, they can't see you.
arcticap
Member
Why keep one loaded?
Because it works better that way!
Because it works better that way!
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