Angus Podgorney
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Exactly!
BTW, my one (for now)1911 is an uber-reliable streetgun, Springfield mil-spec. Just how much has that evolved from Remington Rand or other early model?
1911. Still the best pistol ever made?
- Thread starter TimboKhan
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Exactly!
BTW, my one (for now)1911 is an uber-reliable streetgun, Springfield mil-spec. Just how much has that evolved from Remington Rand or other early model?
While you are correct,
I was speaking to the sales numbers of new guns. I think most folks buy a gun shoot it a few times, and then stick it in the night stand and all but forget about. A lot of people that I know never buy new mags. They buy a gun and shoot it as it came 17 rounds in the mag or 7, they are just not in to shooting enough to go out and spend the cash on new mags when two perfectly good ones came with it. Also, some people didn't know that you could buy those "evil hi-cap" mags during the AWB.
Your points about CCW are also spot on. No arguement there.
I was speaking to the sales numbers of new guns. I think most folks buy a gun shoot it a few times, and then stick it in the night stand and all but forget about. A lot of people that I know never buy new mags. They buy a gun and shoot it as it came 17 rounds in the mag or 7, they are just not in to shooting enough to go out and spend the cash on new mags when two perfectly good ones came with it. Also, some people didn't know that you could buy those "evil hi-cap" mags during the AWB.
Your points about CCW are also spot on. No arguement there.
Lonestar49
Member
Not quite a 1911 but.. 45cal rules
I'm spoiled now
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Range Report of new Sig P220R standard
What can I say, this 45 caliber, and the gun itself, is the EASIEST, most accurate gun to shoot of all I own..
It is just a BIG PUPPY DOG, as it has NO recoil and eats bull eyes at ANY distance, every-time, as fast as you want to fire off rounds.
Kinda makes the 40cal seem a bit more fun and, as of now, the chase is on to hone my 40 cal even more but, I have NO doubts, the 45 is the weapon of choice when it comes to: "most forgiving", biggest punch, with the easiest point to aim, and deliver, 9 big ones down range.
Kudos to SIG and the beauty of their GUNS
LS
PS.. New Rating system:
45cal - STUD
40cal - Stallion
9mm - Race-Horse
380 - Rider-Horse
I'm spoiled now
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Range Report of new Sig P220R standard
What can I say, this 45 caliber, and the gun itself, is the EASIEST, most accurate gun to shoot of all I own..
It is just a BIG PUPPY DOG, as it has NO recoil and eats bull eyes at ANY distance, every-time, as fast as you want to fire off rounds.
Kinda makes the 40cal seem a bit more fun and, as of now, the chase is on to hone my 40 cal even more but, I have NO doubts, the 45 is the weapon of choice when it comes to: "most forgiving", biggest punch, with the easiest point to aim, and deliver, 9 big ones down range.
Kudos to SIG and the beauty of their GUNS
LS
PS.. New Rating system:
45cal - STUD
40cal - Stallion
9mm - Race-Horse
380 - Rider-Horse
CDP was written for the 1911 plain and simple, ESP has the magazine limitation that allows the 1911 to compete in an area that they wouldn't otherwise be able to compete in. SSP is the only major section of the IDPA that the 1911 can't compete in because of the Double Action/Safe Action requirement, even then you can get a Para Ordnance with the LDA and likely be able to compete (I believe they make 2,000 a year of those).
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TimboKhan
Member
A Berretta 92 is about the easiest and fastest gun to field strip that there is. One button, 4 parts. Requires nothing but a finger.
Well, from Springfields own website, I submit the following: "High-profile 3 dot sights, high-hand grip, beveled magazine well, polished feed ramp and throated barrel, lowered and flared ejection port and angled slide serrations"
They also call it a "step-up" from the GI model. Now look, I won't argue that those aren't all improvements, because they are. But, all those things are quite an evolution from a Remington Rand, which for some reason has become the base model for all discussion.
Someone earlier also said that the advertising for the 1911 makes it sound as if it were handed down by god, which is, in fact, something that annoys me. As good as this pistol is, it is just a pistol. To worship it as if no other gun is worthy is foolish. I am not trying to take anything away from the 1911 as a platform, but right now and for the past few years, the 1911 has become a fad, plain and simple. Advertisers have tacticalized, war on terrorized, home-defensabled, mall-ninjafied, and deified the 1911 so much that you can't open a magazine without reading at least 3 articles on some sort of 1911. That has nothing to do with how nice it is so much as it has to do with an over-saturation of the market. LIke I have said several times now, I own a 1911 that I like a lot, so before you flame me for calling it a fad, keep that in mind.
Timbo
Please re-read what I posted and you quoted me saying. I said "detail strip" meaning down to the frame so that each and every piece is removed. And, actually, I was wrong. You don’t need a hammer and punch. The slide stop can be used to dissemble the whole pistol (except removing the grips) in the field.
What you are describing is “Field Stripping”. Yes, the Beretta M9/ 92FS series is far and away the easiest type of pistol to field strip.
Please re-read what I posted and you quoted me saying. I said "detail strip" meaning down to the frame so that each and every piece is removed. And, actually, I was wrong. You don’t need a hammer and punch. The slide stop can be used to dissemble the whole pistol (except removing the grips) in the field.
What you are describing is “Field Stripping”. Yes, the Beretta M9/ 92FS series is far and away the easiest type of pistol to field strip.
None of these are particularly evolutionary. They are all different cosmetic modifications which can (depending on who you talk to) enhance ability to utilize the weapon to varying degrees. But none modify the basic design of the weapon and some, in fact, were available before the Remington Rand (to use that baseline) ever ended production.
Going back to your original exemplars, the F150 and the Model T are only comparable in that they are both four wheeled ground vehicles utilizing internal combustion engines, operated from the left seat, and belonging to the same company's design history. In no other ways are they comparable. Neither the design, the materials, the ergonomics, or the methods of manufacturing have much in common beyond the most extreme comparisons.
By contrast, Browning (or any Colt engineer) could pick up a Nighthawk Custom and, after being provided similar materials, produce the same weapon. The "evolutionary" improvements lie only in the quality of the materials used (and some steel back then was actually quite good), certain design philosophies (big sights versus the small sights that were normal for the age) and the method of manufacturing (CNC, which was designed to replace the hand manufacturing that produced the same results). The design is the same and the underlying principles are the same.
As for it being a fad, many of those who have helped bring the 1911 back to popularity aren't gun guys. They are operators who use tools to achieve their assigned tasks. Many of them just happen to find that the 1911 fulfills this need better than most.
For those who say that they have never seen a reliable 1911, if you are ever in Las Vegas, you are more than welcome to go to the range with me. I have several 1911's ranging from $500 to $2000 that have have NEVER malfunctioned, even after several thousand rounds without cleaning. If you want to split ammo costs, we can torture test them all you want.
I really don't give a damn about a 10,000 round or 100,000 round torture test. Those prove nothing. I do feel a combat handgun should make at least 1,000 rounds straight with no cleaning and no malfunctions. I have 1911's that will easily do that.
I really don't give a damn about a 10,000 round or 100,000 round torture test. Those prove nothing. I do feel a combat handgun should make at least 1,000 rounds straight with no cleaning and no malfunctions. I have 1911's that will easily do that.
"As for it being a fad, many of those who have helped bring the 1911 back to popularity aren't gun guys. They are operators who use tools to achieve their assigned tasks. Many of them just happen to find that the 1911 fulfills this need better than most."
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Perhaps what works for a SWAT team or a Special Forces team is not always the same as what works best and is most pratical for a civilian CCW permit holder. Dennis
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Perhaps what works for a SWAT team or a Special Forces team is not always the same as what works best and is most pratical for a civilian CCW permit holder. Dennis
MarshallDodge
Member
I am a big fan of the 1911. My first centerfire pistol was a Taurus PT99AF(based on the Beretta 92) and was sold on it because of the "wondernine" salesperson at the gun shop. I later met a guy with a tuned Colt Gold Cup and drilled the center out of his target with it. Needless to say, I was sold.
The Taurus is long gone and I don't miss it. I have tried the M9 and while it is a reliable gun, I don't get near the accuracy with it. I don't see how they can make the M9 for less than a 1911. There are a lot more moving parts in the M9.
The only gun that I would replace my Kimber with is my Sig P226 in .40, it is accurate and has been very reliable.
That all being said, I think the best gun for the military today would be a Glock. I don't like the ergonomics but you can't beat the simplicity.
The Taurus is long gone and I don't miss it. I have tried the M9 and while it is a reliable gun, I don't get near the accuracy with it. I don't see how they can make the M9 for less than a 1911. There are a lot more moving parts in the M9.
The only gun that I would replace my Kimber with is my Sig P226 in .40, it is accurate and has been very reliable.
That all being said, I think the best gun for the military today would be a Glock. I don't like the ergonomics but you can't beat the simplicity.
Spartacus451
Member
From a manufacturing perspective it sucks. No one can seem to do it right consistently. From a user perspective (when you are stuck with the many lemons) it's great.
They can, they just get sloppy as they get more successful. Springfield has a problem with going with whatever supplier is cheaper for each run, and thus there is a lot of variation in the quality and fit of their internals. Kimber had a great run, but let success get to their heads and dropped the quality. Colt . . . well, Colt has been trying to run itself into the ground for years.
While that might be true of the 1911A1, it is also true of every other service pistol on the market.
If one pistol were right for everyone, there wouldn't be such a diverse market.
My problem with this thread, and others like it, is that many say, "This isn't to take anything away from the 1911. . . ."
We fans of the pistol didn't just fall off the turnip truck.
Of course threads like these, "deconstructing" the popularity of the platform, are nothing more than attempts to demonstrate that the popularity of the 1911A1 is due merely to a laundry list of non-sensical reasons and continual pimping by gun rags.
Then for some spice, there are other posters who intimate that whatever they decide is more "modern" than the old warhorse would be universally declared better, if only the anachronists would open their minds to the wonderfullness of the usually plastic alternatives.
No thanks. I came to the 1911A1 by shooting the competitors' autoloading wares and finding them all wanting by comparison in one respect or in many.
If that is true, and I very much doubt that the Glock has been adopted, then congratulations would be in order for the contract calling for between 60-400 pistols and accessories, their first ever to troops who might actually fire them outside of a training range.
http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=8683
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TimboKhan
Member
Sir, I stand corrected, and I apologize for the misunderstanding.
The implication being that because I started this thread, I did just fall off the turnip truck? I am not trying to take anything away from the gun. However, I am trying to point out that it isn't the only boat to row. As I have said 4 times now, I own a 1911 and I am very happy with it. I do not see it as particularly superior to any of my other pistols, and in particular, I don't see it as superior to my P90. Equal, maybe. Superior, no. Sorry, Boats, but if you don't think that aggressive advertising and a over-saturation of worshipful articles in the gun rags hasn't helped the 1911 along in recent years, well... I guess I don't know what to say to that, other than that you and I clearly disagree.
I think mat, not doormat kind of understood the point of my thread when he said:
It's just a pistol, man. That it happens to work good is great, and that is why I, along with jillions of other people own one. But it is still just a pistol. If I had my P90 in my hand, I would be just as likely to win a gunfight, save a damsel in distress and resist the siren song of Communism as easily as I would if I had a 1911. Along those same lines, I don't particularly care what an "operator" uses. I am not an operator, and when I was sort of an operator, I had a M9 and an M60. My point is, I shoot my guns mainly for fun, with an eye towards self-defense and zombie eradication. I am unlikely to the degree of impossibility to ever need my gun to be "operator approved". Yeah, bad stuff can happen in terms of natural disasters, but a natural disaster survival situation is relatively short-term, as opposed to the long term exposure to the elements that operators worry about.
I agree with whomever it was that said that 1000 rounds without cleaning is a good test, and I have done that with my P90. No failures there! I have about half that with my current 1911, and also no failures to report. Also, I have not at any point made intimations that the 1911 isn't reliable. I think some of the custom guns are built way too tight and aren't particularly great until they get broken in, but it would be foolish to say that the gun isn't reliable. I have no idea if those comments were directed at me or not, but if they were, I want to make that clear.
Gila Jorge
Member
I have Smiths, Rugers, and CZs and love them all...but my most recent purchases were a Les Baer Premier and a Nighthawk Talon Bob Tail and I am
just fascinated with them more so than the others....and my CZs I would stake my life upon and have....as I carry them and have yet to have any
malfunction...the 1911s I will make certain I fire extensively before I rely upon them....but they are Classics. They are sexy. They have cache.
just fascinated with them more so than the others....and my CZs I would stake my life upon and have....as I carry them and have yet to have any
malfunction...the 1911s I will make certain I fire extensively before I rely upon them....but they are Classics. They are sexy. They have cache.
"Unless it is properly executed, design is so much a ink on paper."
This is true, but I believe it was taken out of context. The 1911, as it was designed, is an Exceptional pistol which has withstood the rigors of time and changes in society as well as combat.
Just because a few companies produce an inferior quality product in the interest of their own profits doesn't mean that John Browning didn't have all his ducks in a row a Century ago.
Only time will tell how long the 1911 design withstands future changes in the world in which it is revered, but I venture that there will be a limited number or firearms which have brought America the service and respect that the 1911 design has.
This design is so much more than ink on paper, it is a representation of brilliance in engineering.
This is true, but I believe it was taken out of context. The 1911, as it was designed, is an Exceptional pistol which has withstood the rigors of time and changes in society as well as combat.
Just because a few companies produce an inferior quality product in the interest of their own profits doesn't mean that John Browning didn't have all his ducks in a row a Century ago.
Only time will tell how long the 1911 design withstands future changes in the world in which it is revered, but I venture that there will be a limited number or firearms which have brought America the service and respect that the 1911 design has.
This design is so much more than ink on paper, it is a representation of brilliance in engineering.
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Buzz
Now, you may be 100% right on this, as I have not found any evidence to either support or refute that claim or the one that I am about to make, but that just seems odd to me. Didn’t Larry Vickers help HK design the new HK45? I could have sworn that I remember reading that somewhere. The plan was that the HK45 would (with Vickers help) be able to win the contract for replacing the M9.
Now, you may be 100% right on this, as I have not found any evidence to either support or refute that claim or the one that I am about to make, but that just seems odd to me. Didn’t Larry Vickers help HK design the new HK45? I could have sworn that I remember reading that somewhere. The plan was that the HK45 would (with Vickers help) be able to win the contract for replacing the M9.
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