1911. Still the best pistol ever made?

[trbon8r]

Short of one of the older Government issue models, none of the major 1911 makers would survive in any of those environments that you listed, at least not until you break it in with about 2-3,000 rounds. Take a Glock, Hk, or any of the other polymer pistols designed for a combat environment, and they will out shine the Kimbers, STIs, and Bears.

Oh really? Please explain where this has been tested and verified be a credible source.

I got rid of my Glock 21 because it wouldn't feed. The internet myth of flawless Glock reliability is only outshined by the myth that AKs never jam. The Glocks are usually good reliable handguns otherwise they wouldn't be so popular. However, their overblown reliability rep is more a product of advertising than reality.

 

[trbon8r]

Where I'm at with the 1911 is that it is a nice gun that looks pretty, but needs to be cleaned every hundred rounds or so. This way it not only stays pretty but also won't jam every other round.

Where is this rumor coming from? I clean my 1911s usually after 2 or 3 range sessions, around 500 rounds. Sometimes they go a little longer and have no problems.

 

[kellyj00]

"I think you mean John Browning. Sam Colt was dead long before the 1911 was dreamed of."

Good catch. I'm going to edit my post.
Thanks.

 

[PPGMD]

Oh really? Please explain where this has been tested and verified be a credible source.

Most of the 1911 companies I listed aim for the accuracy market, to get that accuracy you have to tighten up the weapon, removing the looser tolerances that allow such a weapon to brush off obstructions like sand and dust.

 

[trbon8r]

delete, double post

 

[trbon8r]

Most of the 1911 companies I listed aim for the accuracy market, to get that accuracy you have to tighten up the weapon, removing the looser tolerances that allow such a weapon to brush off obstructions like sand and dust.

It sounds like you are assuming that the 1911 must be tightened up to be accurate. Most 1911 smiths will tell you that frame/slide fit might account for 10% of the accuracy of the 1911 design. On a combat gun there is no need to tighten up the frame/slide fit. Some people might do this for a bullseye gun, or because it makes the gun "feel" nicer, but for a combat gun such mods are unneeded. The only part that is really "tightened" is the barrel bushing fit to the barrel. This can be set to be on the loose side for a combat gun, while if match accuracy is what you are after the bushing clearances can be set very tight. Even with a sloppy fit bushing, the 1911 will still deliver well beyond acceptable combat accuracy for a handgun.

 

[farscott]

I cannot answer for anyone else, but, for me, the 1911 is the best pistol. I have tried lots of other platforms, but the 1911 works best for me. So I carry a 1911. In the end, that is what matters for me. Others can choose what they want, and I will not nay say their choice.

 

[buzz_knox]

Didn’t Larry Vickers help HK design the new HK45? I could have sworn that I remember reading that somewhere. The plan was that the HK45 would (with Vickers help) be able to win the contract for replacing the M9.

Yes and no. Vickers (and Ken Hackathorn as well if I recall correctly) was involved with the HK45, making the USP more user friendly, especially for those coming fro the 1911. It was designed to compete for the original SOCOM contract and was to be introduced for the subsequent Joint Combat Pistol program. As it turns out, the contract didn't go anywhere.

 

[DogBonz]

OK

This is inaccurate. Most 1911 smiths will tell you that frame/slide fit might account for 10% of the accuracy of the 1911 design. The only part that is really "tightened" is the barrel bushing fit to the barrel. This can be set to be on the loose side for a combat gun, while if match accuracy is what you are after the bushing clearances can be set very tight. Even with a sloppy fit bushing, the 1911 will still deliver well beyond acceptable combat accuracy for a handgun.

It was my understanding, and I am no expert, so I could be wrong here, that it is the barrel lock-up that was most responsible for accuracy (or lack thereof) in a 1911.

Yes and no. Vickers (and Ken Hackathorn as well if I recall correctly) was involved with the HK45, making the USP more user friendly, especially for those coming fro the 1911. It was designed to compete for the original SOCOM contract and was to be introduced for the subsequent Joint Combat Pistol program. As it turns out, the contract didn't go anywhere.

Oh, OK. I thought that I remembered something about that. You see. I have a mind like a steel trap... Old and rusty

 

[PPGMD]

Some people might do this for a bullseye gun, or because it makes the gun "feel" nicer, but for a combat gun such mods are unneeded. The only part that is really "tightened" is the barrel bushing fit to the barrel. This can be set to be on the loose side for a combat gun, while if match accuracy is what you are after the bushing clearances can be set very tight.

I understand the difference between a match gun, and a Government Issue gun, and if you read my comment you would notice that I said that most companies are shooting for accuracy and tighten the tolerances, that's where you get the 1911's reputation of being a finicky gun, because many of the 1911s made today are better suited as a match gun then a combat gun.

Don't assume that because we are criticizing some of the lore surrounding the 1911 that we think it's a bad pistol. As I have repeated several times before, the 1911 is a good pistol, but there is no best pistol, no end all be all of pistols.

 

[buzz_knox]

there is no best pistol, no end all be all of pistols.

That is absolutely correct. Browning wasn't a prophet nor is there any such thing as plastic perfection or German engineering. Every pistol has issues and flaws, but all too often, the virtues of a Glock/Sig/what have you are compared to the flaws of a 1911 and the comparison ends there. A fuller comparisons gives the answer that the 1911 is perfect for some while other weapons are perfect for others.

 

[Fingolfin]

In my amateur opinion the 1911 is possibly the greatest auto-loading design ever and yet also the most overrated.

With the choices we have today, I don't think it's a viable contender except for target and competitive shooting, where it excels.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Yes and no. Vickers (and Ken Hackathorn as well if I recall correctly) was involved with the HK45, making the USP more user friendly, especially for those coming fro the 1911. It was designed to compete for the original SOCOM contract and was to be introduced for the subsequent Joint Combat Pistol program. As it turns out, the contract didn't go anywhere.

Also, Vickers has a lot of experience with the Glock 19, besides being a 1911 guru, so I'd think it would be a pretty logical recommendation for him to make to the AWG if they asked him.

 

[Angus Podgorney]

In my amateur opinion the 1911 is possibly the greatest auto-loading design ever and yet also the most overrated.

That sound was my head exploding!

 

[Angus Podgorney]

Even Browning called the Hi-Power his greatest achievement.

Still waiting for someone to provide a cite for that quote. Seeing as how JMB was dead almost a decade before Dieudonne Saive finished tweaking the HP.

 

[Rob96]

Also, Vickers has a lot of experience with the Glock 19, besides being a 1911 guru, so I'd think it would be a pretty logical recommendation for him to make to the AWG if they asked him.

AWG does carry the G19, as well as 1st SFOD-D, depending on the mission. Supposedly they have also set their 1911s aside for a full sized Glock. Have heard that from two sources, both of which are trust worthy.

Aside from all of that, I love the 1911 platform. For me it is best. Second to that I like the G19.

 

[Rob96]

If that is true, and I very much doubt that the Glock has been adopted, then congratulations would be in order for the contract calling for between 60-400 pistols and accessories, their first ever to troops who might actually fire them outside of a training range.

Somewhere on the net is info for the order. An initial order for 250 pistols was placed and delivered.

 

[wulfbyte]

What an amazing thread. I am surprised that it has gone to 5 pages (I am about to add to its length).

"Still the best pistol ever made?" - As others have said before in this thread, I think there really isn't a best pistol.

If you give me specific situations, I think I can pick a pistol that is tailor made to match that single situation that would perform better than a 1911, but for when you don't know what is going to come next, I'll always pick the 1911.

My first pistol was a 1911A1 that was issued to me during my Army days. It was manufactured by Ithaca, old and the slide liked to rattle around on the frame, but I loved that piece of gear as much as any soldier could. It did everything I ever asked of it and never failed me. Later on, and several units later, I was issued an M9 and it worked for me ok, but it was never as comfortable in my hand as that old Ithaca.

Since those days, I've owned many a pistol from many manufacturers and designs. I think I can say that I have seen pistols that were more powerful, or more accurate, or cheaper, or better made, or more reliable, or just plain better in some way than the 1911. What I don't think I can say though is that there is any single pistol that does all the things a 1911 does as well as it does.

Does that make the 1911 best? I don't know, but it certainly is the best for me.

 

[Gunner4h1r3]

hells yeah the 1911 is the best!

although there are some guns out there with better finishes and whatnot, not very many pistols these days have been used for so long and by so many.

as my chief said, "never take an untested gun into battle"

test of time is good for me. almost 100 years and it is still going strong.

 

[Hunter0924]

My question is why is this still an issue? If you do not like a Government Model then fine no reason to try and rationalize why others do. Stack all your reasons up and believe them. The Government Model is unreliable, undesirable, low capacity, inaccurate, and so one and so forth.
The correctly built Government Model does it for me. There is no such thing as a break in period, accuracy is good and reliability is not an issue (even with a dirty pistol).
I do not understand the animosity some hold to the platform. No one is forced to by the design or even like it. Let it go man.

 

[stevereno1]

if you want a 2lb., 7 shot pistol that jams a lot, is ammo sensative, and takes a lot of work to make a shooter, then a 1911 is for you! I prefer a light, 13 round g-21 that is a rugged, reliable ,proven shooter, for a real defense gun. slick 1911's are pretty at a barbeque, or at the range, but the G-21, or even the spriengfeild xd (with all of the thingies poking out of it that have to be cleaned and lubricated) are a better choice for defense than a 1911.

 

[Hunter0924]

stevereno I truly hope you are being sarcastic. I wonder how many folks form opinions on Government Models without really trying to understand them.
1911 is a way too generic of a term to classify all makes.

 

[Frandy]

Sorry, Stevereno, but your hyperbolic criticism of a 1911 in no way describes any 1911 or 1911-like pistol that I've owned, used, and carried. If your statements are based on personal experience, that is most unfortunate.

 

[ojibweindian]

if you want a 2lb., 7 shot pistol that jams a lot, is ammo sensative, and takes a lot of work to make a shooter, then a 1911 is for you! I prefer a light, 13 round g-21 that is a rugged, reliable ,proven shooter, for a real defense gun. slick 1911's are pretty at a barbeque, or at the range, but the G-21, or even the spriengfeild xd (with all of the thingies poking out of it that have to be cleaned and lubricated) are a better choice for defense than a 1911.

stevereno1, I submit, for your edification, the following: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=310567

Read, enjoy, learn something.

 

[BAT1]

1911

Yes especially if it is a Springer SS loaded Champ!