Joe Demko
Member
Best for what? I've owned a couple and shot a bunch. There are plenty of other accurate, reliable handguns. Things like historical importance and being "sexy" may have some value to certain purchasers. They do not to me.
1911. Still the best pistol ever made?
- Thread starter TimboKhan
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Keep in mind that were talking about a gun, the 1911, that's already "been there and done that" for what...70 years in the armed forces? And, in small numbers, still doing it!
So, reliabililty and durability are not in question, or should be in anyone's mind.
Many of the "other" guns, haven't been there and done that...so time will/may tell!!
But, the quality can be an issue IMHO. It will be more expensive...that's life.
The 1911 is a 45. Not sure why all the comparisons with little 9mms. If that's what you want as a combat pistol, then the 1911 is a bad choice. Compare it to other "modern 45's". There's a "price" to shoot bigger bullets, i.e. weight, capacity, recoil, etc...then decide.
So, reliabililty and durability are not in question, or should be in anyone's mind.
Many of the "other" guns, haven't been there and done that...so time will/may tell!!
But, the quality can be an issue IMHO. It will be more expensive...that's life.
The 1911 is a 45. Not sure why all the comparisons with little 9mms. If that's what you want as a combat pistol, then the 1911 is a bad choice. Compare it to other "modern 45's". There's a "price" to shoot bigger bullets, i.e. weight, capacity, recoil, etc...then decide.
Humans are irrational folk. Everybody also values things differently. Luckily, or else there wouldn't be a discussion hehe.
The 1911 is good enough. No gun is the best, especially when we don't know what best means. But it's definitely good enough for a reasonable specification.
Joe Demko
Member
The design has "been there and done that." What 1940's Remington-Rand 1911's may have done is not an indicator of what 1980's AMT 1911's would do or 2000's Kimbers. So many companies have made 1911's that I'm not sure there is even a real basis for being able to discuss the design without also specify who made the actual guns.
If I say "The Ruger P-89 is the greatest blah blah blah" or
"The Glock 17 is the greatest blah blah blah" or
"The HK USP is the greatest blah blah blah"
then we are dealing with specific designs manufactured by specific companies. Nobody but Glock ever made Glock 17's , you see. So, to make blanket statements about the 1911 without specifying just exactly whose 1911 seems pointless.
If I say "The Ruger P-89 is the greatest blah blah blah" or
"The Glock 17 is the greatest blah blah blah" or
"The HK USP is the greatest blah blah blah"
then we are dealing with specific designs manufactured by specific companies. Nobody but Glock ever made Glock 17's , you see. So, to make blanket statements about the 1911 without specifying just exactly whose 1911 seems pointless.
OP
OP
TimboKhan
Member
Well, simply put, I think a lot more than materials and methods have changed. The point that I am making is that I think if you are going to believe the 100 years of history argument, you have to base your opinion of John Brownings original design, and that design has obviously been monkeyed with, both to the detriment and improvement of the original design. Saying that it is the same basic design is not the same as it being the same design, and if it isn't the same, then it isn't 100 years old. A 1969 Corvette is the same basic idea as a 2007 Corvette, but they are clearly not the same car. However, much like a Remington Rand and a Baer, one could not exist if it weren't for the other. You couldn't drive a new Corvette without it's evolving from the old, and you wouldn't have custom pistols if the original pistols weren't good.
I disagree. If I cannot make a blanket statement about the merits of a design, then people have to be more specific when they tell me why it is so great. Since that never happens, I contend that my points are valid. My whole point is to compare the 1911 design against the other designs out there, and you have to make a blanket statement when you do that. I tried to modify my statement by saying "John Brownings original design" as much as possible to show that that was the basis of my comparison, and I think I pointed out custom features that are pretty common.
On 1911 reliability
Ok, here we go again. As I said, I am not a rabid 1911 fan, but this is where I get a little foam in the corner of my mouth. The 1911 is just as reliable as any of the other “combat” autos on the market to day, and maybe more so than some. The reason for the 1911’s Jekyll and Hyde reputation is due to many, many factors. Some of these include (briefly):
1. As I have said, to the point of nausea, everyone makes a 1911. This can be good or very bad. We all know that some folks keep their tolerances better than others.
2. The method of production. (closely tied to # 1) Some companies use MIM parts, cheap cast parts, lower grade material, etc. All of which add to brakeage und reliability issues.
3. CNC machining VS hand fitting. In an effort to keep costs down, manufacturers give guns more time on the CNC machines and less time on a skilled craftsman’s bench. With an all steel (or all metal) gun hand fitting not only ensures a better running pistol, but also that any pistols with major defects don’t leave the factory.
4. Everyone is a 1911 ‘smith. That’s right. Have a Dremel, a hammer, a kitchen table, and 5th grade education? Then “come on down” you’re the next contestant on “who wants to be a gunsmith”. This is just bad and should be self explanatory.
5. It’s like a Harley. (related to # 4) you think a lot of people make 1911’s. Well, ten times that many make 1911 parts. Again, some are high quality, and some are junk. But even with good parts, if you start mixing and matching manufacturers, things could get ugly. Ever see a Harley with a bunch of different parts form a bunch of different makers? It’s the same with guns.
6. Surplus 1911’s. Most surplus 1911’s saw a level of abuse that would make a rented mule fell lucky. Seriously, those guns were rebuilt many, many times. Just look at the CMP Garands. Yeah, they shoot, but most of them need a little TLC.
7. Old School Mentality. Conventional wisdom dictated that a 1911 could be accurate or reliable, but not both. This is ridiculous. I have seen 1911’s with the slide squeezed so tight it barely could move in the search for a nice, tight, accurate gun. On the flip side. I have seen guns put together out of spec (too loose) to try to increase reliability. How do you fix this? See #3.
8. Sore Losers. I cannot confirm this, so don’t shoot the messenger, but I have heard that in the early days of some formal competitions that if your gun malfunctioned you got a “do over”. Now allegedly some folks could actually induce their gun to malfunction. So what happens? Oops, threw a shot way off target… no problem, make the gun into the bad guy and you get another go.
This is just a skimming of a few things that I feel are reasons for the mixed rap that the 1911 has. The Design is very good. It is in the execution and our delusions about what is should be or what we have to do to the pistol that is bad, or at least where bad things can happen.
Ok, here we go again. As I said, I am not a rabid 1911 fan, but this is where I get a little foam in the corner of my mouth. The 1911 is just as reliable as any of the other “combat” autos on the market to day, and maybe more so than some. The reason for the 1911’s Jekyll and Hyde reputation is due to many, many factors. Some of these include (briefly):
1. As I have said, to the point of nausea, everyone makes a 1911. This can be good or very bad. We all know that some folks keep their tolerances better than others.
2. The method of production. (closely tied to # 1) Some companies use MIM parts, cheap cast parts, lower grade material, etc. All of which add to brakeage und reliability issues.
3. CNC machining VS hand fitting. In an effort to keep costs down, manufacturers give guns more time on the CNC machines and less time on a skilled craftsman’s bench. With an all steel (or all metal) gun hand fitting not only ensures a better running pistol, but also that any pistols with major defects don’t leave the factory.
4. Everyone is a 1911 ‘smith. That’s right. Have a Dremel, a hammer, a kitchen table, and 5th grade education? Then “come on down” you’re the next contestant on “who wants to be a gunsmith”. This is just bad and should be self explanatory.
5. It’s like a Harley. (related to # 4) you think a lot of people make 1911’s. Well, ten times that many make 1911 parts. Again, some are high quality, and some are junk. But even with good parts, if you start mixing and matching manufacturers, things could get ugly. Ever see a Harley with a bunch of different parts form a bunch of different makers? It’s the same with guns.
6. Surplus 1911’s. Most surplus 1911’s saw a level of abuse that would make a rented mule fell lucky. Seriously, those guns were rebuilt many, many times. Just look at the CMP Garands. Yeah, they shoot, but most of them need a little TLC.
7. Old School Mentality. Conventional wisdom dictated that a 1911 could be accurate or reliable, but not both. This is ridiculous. I have seen 1911’s with the slide squeezed so tight it barely could move in the search for a nice, tight, accurate gun. On the flip side. I have seen guns put together out of spec (too loose) to try to increase reliability. How do you fix this? See #3.
8. Sore Losers. I cannot confirm this, so don’t shoot the messenger, but I have heard that in the early days of some formal competitions that if your gun malfunctioned you got a “do over”. Now allegedly some folks could actually induce their gun to malfunction. So what happens? Oops, threw a shot way off target… no problem, make the gun into the bad guy and you get another go.
This is just a skimming of a few things that I feel are reasons for the mixed rap that the 1911 has. The Design is very good. It is in the execution and our delusions about what is should be or what we have to do to the pistol that is bad, or at least where bad things can happen.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Yep foob, I said the 1911 carried in condition 1 is the fastest too
swing into action~! I guess that might apply to any "cocked and locked"
variant; such as the BHP and H&K USP-1.
swing into action~! I guess that might apply to any "cocked and locked"
variant; such as the BHP and H&K USP-1.
I dunno ... You really need to limit the scope of your discussion a lot more before you can even attempt to use the word "best," otherwise you're just blathering incoherently.
I mean, a 1911 is just about the last thing I'd choose for most situations, but if I were in combat and forced to used FMJ and had plenty spare mags, It'd probably be high in the running for "best" in my book.
I mean, a 1911 is just about the last thing I'd choose for most situations, but if I were in combat and forced to used FMJ and had plenty spare mags, It'd probably be high in the running for "best" in my book.
Joe Demko
Member
OK. Would you still be extolling the virtues of the design if the only examples of that design were the AMT abortions and the truly horrid Auto Ordnance junkers of a few years back? Design is one thing, execution of that design is another. Unless it is properly executed, design is so much a ink on paper.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
Greeting's tostada My Friend-
You are probably correct, as most likely in a worst case scenario I would
grab my West German SIG-SAUER P220A .45 ACP. Why? Two reasons, it
goes BANG everytime and has NEVER let me down. I refer too it as MY
"BACON SAVER"~!
foob My Friend-
If in doubt, just look at the accomplishments of Mr. Jeff Cooper,
Clint Smith (of Thunder Ranch), or on a lesser scale Mr. Gil Hebard.
All can shoot a 1911 very quickly, and very accurately. So can our
hometown hero (and THR member), the one and only capbuster.
You are probably correct, as most likely in a worst case scenario I would
grab my West German SIG-SAUER P220A .45 ACP. Why? Two reasons, it
goes BANG everytime and has NEVER let me down. I refer too it as MY
"BACON SAVER"~!
foob My Friend-
If in doubt, just look at the accomplishments of Mr. Jeff Cooper,
Clint Smith (of Thunder Ranch), or on a lesser scale Mr. Gil Hebard.
All can shoot a 1911 very quickly, and very accurately. So can our
hometown hero (and THR member), the one and only capbuster.
45Badger
Member
Y'all blasphemers is gonna rot in h*&& for them disparagin' remarks
In my old age, I'm expanding my consciousness and trigger control practice to include other wonderful weapons (like S&W K- frames ) and some practical pieces of plastic (like my Glock 19
). End of the day, it's the 1911 that gets shot, carried, put on the nightstand.
In my old age, I'm expanding my consciousness and trigger control practice to include other wonderful weapons (like S&W K- frames
) and some practical pieces of plastic (like my Glock 19 ). End of the day, it's the 1911 that gets shot, carried, put on the nightstand.Angus Podgorney
Member
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Well see that's where you are wrong. You should read some of Patrick Sweeney's writings on the 1911, including his torture tests. The usual bury it in mud, run over them with a truck kind of thing. He had an Expensive Wilson and an inexpensive R.I.A. sail through with flying colors.
Hey, I like the gun but that's nonsense. JMB himself had at least two other guns that were copied more and the High Power P35 was issued to far more Armies and agencies than the 1911.
Torture test and torture demonstration is very different. One is vietcong style pulling your nails out, the other is american style using bad music.
Testing, should be a vigorous process. Not going out for a day, throwing it in mud, and running it over with a truck.
Seriously, what firearm made of metal stops working after being run over by a truck? I think 95% of firearm models can survive a tire or two.
Maybe one day consumer reports can do firearm testing hehe.
jad0110
Member
Good posts DogBonz. I would add crappy magazines at #9 on the list.
First, I don't own a 1911. Yet. I think #s 4 and 5 on your list are probably the most common (hack job gunsmithing and crummy parts), and they usually seem to occur together. Just as much as a Honda that has been tarted up and tinkered with can be made very unreliable if not done right, so can a 1911 in the hands of the unskilled and uneducated (which includes my hands BTW). And since everyone and their mother likes to customize 1911s (which is great if done right), it means that we see plenty of choking, broken 1911s as compared to Glocks, XDs, and HKs that people don't mess with as much.
I won't be buying a used 1911 as my first for those reasons. Kinda like buying a used Mustang or Camaro. You gotta know what your looking at, and I just don't right now.
BTW, other than different Mags or perhaps a Wolf Mag spring, I know plenty of guys shooting no frills 5" 1911s that have had very few problems (most were FTFs from bad reloads). I would guess that staying as close to JMB's original design as possible (save for perhaps bevelled mag wells, polished feed ramps, and throated barrels) helps.
It's not possible to pick a best handgun, period. If it were, we wouldn't have so many excellent choices available to us, including the 1911.
First, I don't own a 1911. Yet. I think #s 4 and 5 on your list are probably the most common (hack job gunsmithing and crummy parts), and they usually seem to occur together. Just as much as a Honda that has been tarted up and tinkered with can be made very unreliable if not done right, so can a 1911 in the hands of the unskilled and uneducated (which includes my hands BTW). And since everyone and their mother likes to customize 1911s (which is great if done right), it means that we see plenty of choking, broken 1911s as compared to Glocks, XDs, and HKs that people don't mess with as much.
I won't be buying a used 1911 as my first for those reasons. Kinda like buying a used Mustang or Camaro. You gotta know what your looking at, and I just don't right now.
BTW, other than different Mags or perhaps a Wolf Mag spring, I know plenty of guys shooting no frills 5" 1911s that have had very few problems (most were FTFs from bad reloads). I would guess that staying as close to JMB's original design as possible (save for perhaps bevelled mag wells, polished feed ramps, and throated barrels) helps.
It's not possible to pick a best handgun, period. If it were, we wouldn't have so many excellent choices available to us, including the 1911.
RobZ71LM7
Member
Funny I've owned 3 1911's, RIA, Para, S&W and have never seen a malfunction with any of them. I must be rare. The author is obviously technically ignorant. The current 1911's are not much different than the original aside from cosmetics and a few ergonomic enhancements (as well as different manufacturing processes). I like the way they operate and I find them easy to carry. If Springfield made a single stack .45 XD I'd probably buy that. I may eventually replace my 1911 with a Sig.
The author is obviously technically ignorant. The current 1911's are not much different than the original aside from cosmetics and a few ergonomic enhancements (as well as different manufacturing processes). I like the way they operate and I find them easy to carry. If Springfield made a single stack .45 XD I'd probably buy that. I may eventually replace my 1911 with a Sig.Maybe because we don't fight in trenches for months, track insurgents in jungles, etc.
It's more than adequate as a carry weapon.
If reliability wasn't an issue (or at least if reliability couldn't be improved), no gunsmith would need to offer reliability work/packages... just looking at the angle the magazine seats should give an idea of the likelihood of FTF.
The mere existance of this thread, the ones just like it written before this thread, the ones just like it which will be written after this thread show the dominace of the 1911. These threads almost always seem to be initiated by someone looking to knock the 1911 from its throne.
DJGrant
Member
kcmarine
Member
Eh, it's good. If I had to choose a gun to defend myself with, it wouldn't be #1 (that would probably be a XD 40), but it's good.
SoCalShooter
Member
I have many guns. But I'll take a M1911 any day of the week.
Angus Podgorney
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Oh I get it, torture tests are only relevant for GLOCK and SIG and H&K but not 1911's?
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