cheap gun bashing

[boom boom]

Have followed this thread quite closely after my posting about my little Davis. When I first started shooting 100 Yd Black Powder rifle competition, I had to use a Thompson Center 50 cal Hawken. (All I could afford, most were using custom rifles) I was ridiculed and laughed at many times. One guy even laughed out loud and told me I "Shouldn't shoot that thing in serious competition". I ignored him and went on to out shoot him on a regular basis. I was usually in the money! Sad to say I quit after two seasons. The reason? quite simple, I didn't want to continue shooting with a bunch of snobs, despite that fact I out shot most of them An older gentleman who had coached me,was also laughed at for his rifles, they were "home made" and he and his wife always finished really well at the Nationals. In fact he and his wife won the husband and wife event several times. So if there is a moral to the story its quite simply this. "Some can shoot darn near anything well and some cant shoot worth a darn with the most expensive firearms". . So lets all think hard about the criticism or assistance we offer..

Unfortunately, a lot of folks focus on making themselves look big and others small or the hardware rather than the software between the ears. Sorry you had that experience. An inexpensive firearms in the right hands is better than the gold plated Korth revolver in the wrong ones.

Would not be surprised in the least that the "homemade" black powder rifles of your friend might be sold in the hopefully distant future as genuine [insert his name] artisan made firearms as collectibles. I suspect that he has had some quiet offers to buy his from time to time as well. Those made the old way by the Blacksmith's Shop in Colonial Williamsburg are expensive because of the time and artistry in making them and I'd imagine your friend's involved similar time and trouble.

 

[thomas15]

What exactly does this mean?

Unfortunately, a lot of folks focus on making themselves look big and others small or the hardware rather than the software between the ears.

 

[boom boom]

What exactly does this mean?

Hardware--the make and model of firearms. Thus, a lot of people buy something like an expensive Les Baer .45 and then operate it with an empty chamber, hammer down, etc. in condition 4.

Software--training, knowledge in how to operate the firearm, etc.

 

[thomas15]

Hardware--the make and model of firearms. Thus, a lot of people buy something like an expensive Les Baer .45 and then operate it with an empty chamber, hammer down, etc. in condition 4.

Software--training, knowledge in how to operate the firearm, etc.

A lot of people?

Is that right?

 

[boom boom]

A lot of people?

Is that right?

Do you really want to have an argument of rhetorical claims versus dialectic?

Regardless of your rather poor trolling attempt because you ain't Socrates and your questions are not attempts to really try to reach the truth--I don't have Les Baer's exact sales numbers but I suspect neither do you. He has sold them for a long period of time and they are expensive and he has sold at least in the thousands over the years. Some of whom buy such expensive firearms either by the influence of a friend, media, reputation, or even a firearms trainer. I also suspect that at least a certain portion of these rest in a drawer or safe and have not even been shot enough to break them in.

If you prefer substituting Wilson Defense, or any other catchy expensive firearm such as a Korth for all that matters or an esoteric one such as the Sphinx 9mm. The point is still valid whether you like it or not which I suspect not. A cheap firearm, even a .22 LR Saturday Night Special in the right hands who knows how to operate it in a safe and legal way is more efficacious, ceterus paribus, than an expensive firearm in the hands of someone who lacks training and ability on when and how to shoot and how to operate their firearm.

I'm done.

 

[FlSwampRat]

When I first started shooting 100 Yd Black Powder rifle competition, I had to use a Thompson Center 50 cal Hawken.

I have a T/C Seneca and Hawken. The boys I used to shoot with on Fla's west coast didn't care much what you shot with, they cared more about where those holes went in the paper.

I didn't want to continue shooting with a bunch of snobs

Well, this is shooting related, but not gun shooting. In short, I was in a camera club and if you blue ribbonned in the monthly competition you got to say "I shot this with my _____ camera at such and such a location." Got tired if people filling in the blanks with names of expensive cameras, like that was what gave them the winning edge. I finally entered and got my blue ribbon. I stood up and said "I shot this with my Kodak Instamatic 800" and gleefully watched the expressions of disdain. I've always been a reverse snob. If I got the job done with something that cost half of what I might have spent on a fancier tool I felt that much more satisfaction in a job well done. I love my Bersa .380 cc and the customers I have sold the same gun to have told me they liked it as well. I highly recommend the Hi Points to people who want nightstand guns. Not everyone can afford or wants to spend close to or more than a thousand dollars on a firearm.
I don't sell certain brands of guns that were available that I consider trash because they're clearly, well, trash. Only truly bad thing I have to say about Hi Point handguns is they are ugly. I'm not so turned off on the carbine, but that's another thread.

 

[Choctaw]

This hobby is full of snobs just like any other. The point is to enjoy what you have while you have it. If you are with a group of people who are overtly critical of what brings you enjoyment, it's time to get a new group of people.

 

[thomas15]

The point is still valid whether you like it or not which I suspect not.

I was just asking for some confirmation that you really intended to say something that you really have no proof it is true. No need for you to be offended by little ole me.

Have a fantastic day boom boom!

 

[theotherwaldo]

Some of my most amusing photography was with an old Brownie that I found in an alley in Los Angeles.
Likewise, some of my most amusing shooting was with an R/G 14 that I bought in a drug store.

Fun is where you find it.

 

[Styx]

I have a T/C Seneca and Hawken. They boys I used to shoot with on Fla's west coast didn't care much what you shot with, they cared more about where those holes went in the paper.



Well, this is shooting related, but not gun shooting. In short, was in a camera club and if you blue ribbonned in the monthly competition you got to say "I shot this with my _____ camera at such and such a location." Got tired if people filling in the blanks with names of expensive cameras, like that was what gave them the winning edge. I finally entered and got my blue ribbon. I stood up and said "I shot this with my Kodak Instamatic 800" and gleefully watched the expressions of disdain. I've always been a reverse snob. If I got the job done with something that cost half of what I might have spent on a fancier tool I felt that much more satisfaction in a job well done. I love my Bersa .380 cc and the customers I have sold the same gun to have told me they liked it as well. I highly recommend the Hi Points to people who want nightstand guns. Not everyone can afford or wants to spend close to or more than a thousand dollars on a firearm.
I don't sell certain brands of guns that were available that I consider trash because they're clearly, well, trash. Only truly bad thing I have to say about Hi Point handguns is they are ugly. I'm not so turned off on the carbine, but that's another thread.

You and I are the same. I'm usually in the minority when this topic comes up. It's refreshing to see others who think the same way. I see guns like cars. All that matters is that it safely gets you from point A to point B... You don't need 500 HP, fancy interior, and a good looks to accomplish that feat... It's nice to have if you can afford it, but it's not necessary. A criminal or a target can't tell nor will they care about whether they were shot by a bullet bullet fired out of a Hi Point, a Glock, or even a fancy 1911...

 

[FlSwampRat]

You and I are the same. I'm usually in the minority when this topic comes up. It's refreshing to see others who think the same way. I see guns like cars. All that matters is that it safely gets you from point A to point B... You don't need 500 HP, fancy interior, and a good looks to accomplish that feat... It's nice to have if you can afford it, but it's not necessary. A criminal or a target can't tell nor will they care about whether they were shot by a bullet bullet fired out of a Hi Point, a Glock, or even a fancy 1911...

I drive a 14 year old pickup truck with a 6 cylinder engine, standard cab, 8' bed and it's 2 wheel drive. Gets me to work without killing me at the pump and I can fit 2 x 4's and sheets of plywood in the back when I go to Home Depot.
I have a 40+ year old Harley (sadly I bought it new from the dealer) that no one would call a show bike.
They work, they do the job needed and I'm good with that.
I have a Colt Python and a Colt Anaconda that I bought ages ago when they weren't costing body parts. I think I paid under $300. for the Python in '74 and under $400 for the Anaconda in the mid 90's.

 

[Labguy47]

I have shot a lot of guns, some are smooth as butter, others I wonder if they washed up on shore from a ship wreck, extra gritty. Gun smithing is definitely an art. Seen too many people make really good shots with questionable equipment to not be a believer, at home and abroad.

 

[skeeterfogger]

What typically makes a gun cheap is poor or no maintenance. I've only shot one Hipoint. It went bang like it should. Only down side for me was trigger pull and what it took to get it apart for complete cleaning and back together. It may have been just that model I don't know. That and bulky build was turn off for me.
Some may consider the Taurus G2 211 to be cheap. Yes the cost is compared to some others but it was far better for me than the Springfield XD9 that just never felt right. I found it displeasing too that Springfield is not made in U. S.. But that was not the reason I gave it up.

 

[bikerdoc]

Clarification for me.

To me Cheap means inexpensive, not poor design, construction or quality.

MOD WARNING:
Knock off the sarcasm and bickering.

 

[Styx]

What typically makes a gun cheap is poor or no maintenance. I've only shot one Hipoint. It went bang like it should. Only down side for me was trigger pull and what it took to get it apart for complete cleaning and back together. It may have been just that model I don't know. That and bulky build was turn off for me.
Some may consider the Taurus G2 211 to be cheap. Yes the cost is compared to some others but it was far better for me than the Springfield XD9 that just never felt right. I found it displeasing too that Springfield is not made in U. S.. But that was not the reason I gave it up.

If it's any consolation, they're still a U.S. import/manufacturing company which means buying their products are creating/supporting American jobs. They do manufacturer some of their firearms in the U.S., just not the XD.

 

[rskent]

I drive a 14 year old pickup truck with a 6 cylinder engine, standard cab, 8' bed and it's 2 wheel drive. Gets me to work without killing me at the pump and I can fit 2 x 4's and sheets of plywood in the back when I go to Home Depot.
I have a 40+ year old Harley (sadly I bought it new from the dealer) that no one would call a show bike.
They work, they do the job needed and I'm good with that.
I have a Colt Python and a Colt Anaconda that I bought ages ago when they weren't costing body parts. I think I paid under $300. for the Python in '74 and under $400 for the Anaconda in the mid 90's.

And none of those would have been considered “cheep” at the time that you got them.

 

[rskent]

You and I are the same. I'm usually in the minority when this topic comes up. It's refreshing to see others who think the same way. I see guns like cars. All that matters is that it safely gets you from point A to point B... You don't need 500 HP, fancy interior, and a good looks to accomplish that feat... It's nice to have if you can afford it, but it's not necessary. A criminal or a target can't tell nor will they care about whether they were shot by a bullet bullet fired out of a Hi Point, a Glock, or even a fancy 1911...

But the car does actually have to get you from point A to point B.

A criminal may not be able to tell if they were shot with a cheep gun, as long as the cheap gun actually works when you need it. Just saying.

 

[ATLDave]

I find this whole discussion a bit puzzling, and dominated by a false dichotomy, to wit: Either you must think all guns that go bang are of equal utility, or you must regard all guns below X price point or quality level to be garbage.

Frankly, that's silly. Guns, like most other objects and products used by humans, have all kinds of varying properties. And how "good" an object needs to be greatly depends on the precise user.

I'm not a contractor or construction worker. I do some odd jobs around the house. I need, for instance, a drill. I need it to work the 6 times a year I get it out, and I need it to hold onto drill bits, and I need it to make them go round-and-round in a clockwise fashion. I have a Ryobi drill that I got fairly cheaply at Home Depot. It does this. Because of my level of skill/involvement/usage, that's enough for me.

Is it a particularly nice drill? No. I'm sure if I were a contractor or a serious home improvement hobbyist or even just a tool enthusiast, I'd splash out for a DeWalt or Milwaukee or whatever my extensive experience and research told me was best. If I were in those categories, and talking to someone who was a fellow serious drill-user, or someone who aspired to be a serious drill-user, I'd probably say "the Ryobi is a nice toy and OK to learn with, but "buy once, cry once'." I don't think that would be bashing" my current drill. It's not saying that my cheap Ryobi has no utility. It has enough utility for a casual user.

If someone wants a gun that goes bang and generally stabilizes the bullet, and feeds a new round from the magazine the vast majority of the time, then there are a lot of guns these days that will meet that criteria. The list of guns that will perform, or support user's performance, at higher levels is shorter... and tends to have higher average prices. I don't think it's an either/or choice.

No, a Hi-Point is not the equivalent of an SVI, or even a Sig. If it were, nobody would buy the more expensive guns, or at least not in sufficient volumes for the makers to stay in business. But it might be adequate for the person who just wants to have "a gun" in a "real caliber" that could be used to fire a few rounds in a dire emergency. And if money is tight, good enough is good enough.

 

[MikeInOr]

I watched a video on cheap handguns, and the comments were just out of control.

The topic of high point pistols came up, and one person was adamant that they were so dangerous to the owners that some states have outright banned them for carry.

I just don't understand the mindset that it is their duty to spread falsehoods in their quest to bash a brand of weapon. When I looked up what he was referring to, it was really the Illinois melting point law from the 1960s which everyone knew was an attempt to restrict the rights of all people to defend themselves, removing inexpensive options from their gun stores in a bad effort to curb shootings in Chicago.

Hi point pistols were sold in Illinois gun stores right up until 2017, so there are plenty of them still in the state, they just can't sell them over the counter anymore.

I look at it this way, the second amendment applies to all law abiding citizens, and we should defend that at all cost. It's not my place to tell someone else how to spend their hard earned money.

While I don't personally want to own or carry a high point, I will certainly defend that right, and it's up to the individual to decide if that is for them or not.

I am a tool junkie and own many quality Proto, Mac, Snapon tools. I appreciate their value and the service life I can expect from them!

Sometimes I just need a tool to get the job at hand done and I go to HarborFreight to pick up that tool that I might only use once or twice in my life time.

I am happy that BOTH options are available to me!

 

[Styx]

But the car does actually have to get you from point A to point B.

A criminal may not be able to tell if they were shot with a cheep gun, as long as the cheap gun actually works when you need it. Just saying.

The entire gist and comparison of my post was that cost and extras frivolous features that add cost do not matter just as long as the vehicle, firearm, etc is able to complete it's core task. The car and firearm comparison was not meant to be compared to each other in any other sense.

 

[ATLDave]

The entire gist and comparison of my post was that cost and extras frivolous features that add cost do not matter just as long as the vehicle, firearm, etc is able to complete it's core task.

See, that's silly, unless you mean to have a different "core task" for each user. At which point the claim becomes trivial (things need to be able to do whatever the buyer needs them to do).

 

[Styx]

See, that's silly, unless you mean to have a different "core task" for each user. At which point the claim becomes trivial (things need to be able to do whatever the buyer needs them to do).

Huh? I don't really understand what you're getting at... Seems like some are over analyzing and complicating a simple comparison and statement.

 

[FlSwampRat]

See, that's silly, unless you mean to have a different "core task" for each user. At which point the claim becomes trivial (things need to be able to do whatever the buyer needs them to do).

Every gun has at least one core task, but they'll differ from owner to owner. A concealed EDC. A nightstand gun. A target shootin' iron. Etc, etc. If one of those core functions for someone is eventual resale, doing your best to maintain its value would be a factor, and that was one of the points I was making. To take a gun and customize it for the shooter's core task of using it, that's fine, but if one of those core tasks is having an eye to eventually selling or trading it it would be wise to retain the parts to return it to as original a condition as possible. It would seem to me to be unwise in the extreme, seriously penny wise and pound foolish to have it refinished by the lowest bidder. If he couldn't just leave it alone with worn bluing (like my Dad's 1950 Colt Official Police has), then it would seem to be wise to seek the most competent re-finisher to do the best job possible so that when it was time to sell or trade it it would have the highest value.

 

[FlSwampRat]

Due to the peculiarities of the English language, the word cheap can mean both low price as well as poorly made, but not necessarily applying to the same item. I've seen inexpensive (cheap) guns that ran just fine. I've seen expensive guns that had some corner cutting (cheap) done during manufacture.
Colored poly lowers are popular with some folks and most makers simply use colored polymer for the molding process. One very well respected brand sent us one on ffl transfer that when field stripped clearly showed a black poly lower that had been painted (?) or coated in some way, the magazine well clearly showing fadeout like how overspray looks. To me, that's cheap. Price was over $500 though, which isn't cheap in my book.
People bash low priced guns because they assume that low price automatically means low quality, which it does not, necessarily, any more than high price = high quality. Also, while they run good and have reasonable accuracy for a nightstand gun, Hi Points have zero prestige and therefore don't reflect well on the owner in some owner's minds. That being said, I've seen people with very expensive guns who could get outshot by Stevie Wonder seemingly.
A person's gun doesn't impress me (well maybe if it was an original Walker Colt), what they are able do with it can impress me. Jerry M sure springs to mind.

 

[KevininPa]

Some of my most amusing photography was with an old Brownie that I found in an alley in Los Angeles.
Likewise, some of my most amusing shooting was with an R/G 14 that I bought in a drug store.

Fun is where you find it.

Seriously, you bought a firearm in a drug store? I'm intrigued. What era was this? I'm 58 and haven't seen that. Hardware stores, yes. Never a drug store.