"Do you have firearms in the vehicle?"

[Creeping Incrementalism]

Got stopped in Boulder County (CO) on the way home one night late last year. Had been swimming at the gym, then gone for a run, then to a Tex-Mex restaurant to hang with friends, so for once I actually DIDN'T have a gun with me.

He said, "Gun?" I said, "No."

For the next two hours I put up with his shenanigans...I got hauled out of the car...did eight (count 'em!) roadside soriety tests...assumed the position while he waited for "back-up"...

Why would the cop give you such a hard time to begin with? Did you have any alocholic drinks at the Mexican restaurant?

Here in the peoples republic of california a loaded magazine or speedloader for either a rifle or pistol constitutes a loaded firearm.

It doesn't matter how it is locked or stored, you aren't allowed to transport loaded magazines.

Thats what I know to be a fact,

Technically incorrect, as the code says the definition of loaded is having the ammunition "attached" to the firearm. Though, I'm not even pretending to say the police and courts don't go beyond the law to deprive us of our rights in California.

Gordon Fink

As far as I can recall it’s always been worded to include the word “illegal” as in “Do you have any illegal weapons or drugs in your vehical?”

Yorick has hit upon the correct way to answer this question, I think.

Fishing Officer: Do you have firearms in the vehicle?

Law-Abiding Motorist: No. There are no illegal guns in my car.

Agree? Disagree?

~G. Fink

I think that's the best approach, because as long as there is nothing that shouts "gunowner" to the cop, the main thing he will probably have in mind is drugs/alcohol, so you will probably be fine saying "nothing illegal". Ben Cannon/artherd says he has used this successfully before.

 

[AJAX22]

For legal purpouses a magazine or speedloader is considered to be part of the firearm.

so a loaded magazine is ammunition attached to a firearm.

I can't point you to the exact court decision which put that interperatation into law. But Its come up a few times along the side of the road while the cops rummage through the car.

And this wasn't during transport, just during some plinking when the cops decided to run the numbers on the guns.

A gun is only unloaded if the magazines are compleatly empty, it has to do with the ease of enabaling the weapon to fire.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue technicalitys, just don't do it, you will get busted for it, the guns will get taken away, you'll have to fight in court to get them back, they won't properly maintain/lube/store the guns while they have them, and at times, if they don't like you, they will purpously damage them.

Police officers are not bad people, but there are some definite anti gun biased officers around here in california. Usually the highway patroll are more tollerant than the city cops, but even then there are occasions where the officers act in unreasonable manners in an attempt to criminalize the activities of people who have guns.

 

[pdowg881]

So if you respons that you have an unloaded rifle in the trunk(legally stored and owned etc.) does this give him cuase for a search? If he says may I see the rifle, do you have the right to refuse.

 

[Sawdust]

Ajax22, will you STOP posting erroneous information?

You don't have any idea of what you are talking about in this thread.

First, you try to tell us that, by law, a CCW holder in California must inform a law enforcement officer that he/she is licensed and carrying. This is false, and I challenged you on that post and you have failed to provide proof of your assertion. And you haven't deleted your post.

And proof means Section of Penal Code. Not what your cousin's boyfriend's uncle told you or some cop on the side of the road.

Now, you say: "Here in the peoples republic of california a loaded magazine or speedloader for either a rifle or pistol constitutes a loaded firearm.

It doesn't matter how it is locked or stored, you aren't allowed to transport loaded magazines.

Thats what I know to be a fact"

Uh-huh. Wrong again. But I'll give you one more chance. Please provide proof which supports your assertions.

You need to spend some serious time studying the relevant firearm sections of the CA Penal Code before you post anything regarding CA firearm laws again.

Sawdust

 

[Thefabulousfink]

Here is what I found for CA on Packing.org (updated 7-29-05)
http://www.packing.org/state/california/#statecar_law

Penal Code 12001

(j) For purposes of Section 12023, a firearm shall be deemed to be "loaded" whenever both the firearm and the unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from the firearm are in the immediate possession of the same person.
Penal Code 12023

(a)Every person who carries a loaded firearm with the intent to commit a felony is guilty of armed criminal action.
(b) Armed criminal action is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or in the state prison.
Penal Code 12025.

(a) A person is guilty of carrying a concealed firearm when he or she does any of the following:
(1) Carries concealed within any vehicle which is under his or her control or direction any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(2) Carries concealed upon his or her person any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
(3) Causes to be carried concealed within any vehicle in which he or she is an occupant any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person.
Penal Code 12026.1.

(a) Section 12025 shall not be construed to prohibit any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides or is temporarily within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by Section 12021 or 12021.1 of this code or Section 8100 or 8103 of the Welfare and Institutions Code, from transporting or carrying any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person, provided that the following applies to the firearm:
(1) The firearm is within a motor vehicle and it is locked in the vehicle's trunk or in a locked container in the vehicle other than the utility or glove compartment. (2) The firearm is carried by the person directly to or from any motor vehicle for any lawful purpose and, while carrying the firearm, the firearm is contained within a locked container.
Penal Code 12030

(l) Nothing in this section shall prevent any person from having a loaded weapon, if it is otherwise lawful, at his or her place of residence, including any temporary residence or campsite.
Penal Code 12031.

(a)(1) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when he or she carries a loaded firearm on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.
Penal Code 12034.

(a) It is a misdemeanor for a driver of any motor vehicle or the owner of any motor vehicle, whether or not the owner of the vehicle is occupying the vehicle, knowingly to permit any other person to carry into or bring into the vehicle a firearm in violation of Section 12031 of this code or Section 2006 of the Fish and Game Code.

It doesn't mention anything about loaded mags or speedloaders, however, I would be concerned about what could be termed "immediate possession".

 

[308win]

I would not lie about it. But it would appear that I would not be breaking any law if I simply refused to answer the question.

From the Ohio Attorney General's web site re officer notification if you have a CCW and are carrying.

Text of above cite: Yes, if you are stopped by an officer and transporting a loaded weapon inside the vehicle, you must promptly announce that you have a license, and that a weapon is in the vehicle or on your person. Officials recommend that anyone, with a weapon or not, put their hands on the steering wheel of their vehicle. Do not reach for anything. Doing so may suggest to an officer that you are reaching for a gun. Do not get out of the vehicle and comply with all instructions.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

Thefabulousfink:
Here is what I found for CA on Packing.org (updated 7-29-05)
<snip>
It doesn't mention anything about loaded mags or speedloaders, however, I would be concerned about what could be termed "immediate possession".

Actually, the CA DOJ says the cop at the scene can determine whether or not the gun is loaded. IOW, as soon as he "determines" there are firearms in the vehicle he is empowered to search and then determine if they are loaded.

From: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/appndxa/penalco/penco12031m.htm

(e) In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing this section, peace officers are authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or prohibited area of an unincorporated territory. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of this section.

Denial will get you a "go directly to jail card" so, don't even try to pass go.

 

[cropcirclewalker]

Back before we had concealed carry without permit in autos in MO........

To reiterate.....any person 21 or older and not otherwise prohibited from possessing a firearm may conceal it in the passenger compartment of their car, LOADED even in bad places like .gov parking lots and School parking lots without any permission slip. Further, there is no duty to inform leo that you are thusly armed. Only permission slip holders must provide said slip if it is asked for by leo.

I don't remember if you have to tell leo that you are armed if he asks for your permit. Maybe so, but it's moot.

Like I said, Before we had that concealed car carry provision, it was a felony to have a concealed firearm in your car. Open carry was lawful and still is.

During those dark years I had been stopped at least 6 times by state troopers. Missouri State Troopers. On those occasions I would always take my piece and lay it on the seat next to me in plain sight (sometimes on the dash if I had dogs or wives in my truck)

On only 1 occurance did the trooper even mention my firearm. That was to tell wifey that I was doing it exactly right.

I had a moonlighting state trooper work on my satellite dish back then (c band) and I asked him what the heck was going on.

He told me that when a trooper saw the piece on the seat, the trooper knew that the driver was informed about the law and there was no point in making a big deal about it. Thus no mention.

Also, since I always had a firearm visable, I never had a trooper ask me if I had any "weapons" in the auto.

Here's my question.......Mostly to Ohio State Troopers.......What the heck is the deal?

Missouri State Troopers......no big deal....half of us Ozarkers have guns in our vehicles at all times.

Ohio State Troopers........Hands on the wheel, shout out about the license, don't make sudden moves, don't exit the veekle or do other than instructed.

Please do not be offended but you're acting like those feline things that rub on the leg and purr.

Please, Ohio State Troopers? What is the big deal?

edited for commification.

 

[Gordon Fink]

So if you respons that you have an unloaded rifle in the trunk (legally stored and owned etc.) does this give him cuase for a search?

My assumption is that this would give the officer probable cause to search your vehicle for possible “weapons violations” and thus anything else he might thereupon find “in plain sight.”

~G. Fink

 

[bruss01]

Ah... I think I've found a more sophisticated version than what previously seemed best.

<begin>

Officer: Do you have any weapons in the vehicle?

Me: You're asking me do I have any illegal guns, concealed weapons, and like that? Nope, none of that.

<end>

( in California a handgun cannot be considered a concealed weapon if it is unloaded and placed in a locked container separate from the ammunition)

So in truth, even if I have a handgun locked in a container separate from the ammunition, it is not a "concealed weapon" according to CA law. And of course I would never own let alone transport any kind of illegal firearm. So is this answer likely to spare me some grief, and the officer any inconvenience? Would the officer be satisfied with that answer? Or would he press further? At that point I think I'll be clamming up.

<begin>

O: So you don't have ANY weapons?

M: Do you SEE ANY? I already told you, I don't have any concealed weapons!

<end>


Ajax, this was recently a subject for some study and research on my part. I was able to discover that while technically a strict and proper reading of the law (and a court decision which supports this interpretation) says that a magazine is not considered part of the gun when it is removed from the gun, that interpretation may not be understood by every LEO in CA. Not every LEO knows every proper interpretation and every court decision when it comes to a convoluted subject such as firearms, in fact some of them really do not know a heck of a lot about firearms or firearms law, nor do they care to. So if you get pulled over on a friday night before a 3 day weekend, and found with a loaded magazine which is separate from the gun, the LEO could mistakenly accuse you of having rounds "attached to the firearm or any part thereof". If the guy was a real A-hole, when you argue with him he could slap the mag in the gun, toss it in your trunk and then say "now I'm going to look in your trunk... whoa! look what we have here?!" Either way you might end up spending Friday night thru Tuesday morning in jail waiting for your lawyer to explain to the judge the finer points of the law. The cop says, "oops, my bad, just thought I was doin' my job, yer honor". You go on your merry way, minus only 4 days & nights of your life, plus lawyers fees. Assuming of course that the cop hasn't taken the low road and was simply making an (honest?) mistake.

You're probably (strictly speaking) legal with a loaded mag/unloaded handgun. Truth told, you're probably SAFER with an unloaded mag/unloaded handgun.

 

[AJAX22]

Sawdust- Before you condem me for not sifting through page after page of law to satisfy your curiosity perhapse you should do the reading yourself.

If you have any refuting evidence please offer it up, but keep it free of harsh attitudes.

It takes a certain amount of time to research a subject like this, and while it takes just a few seconds to sumarize previous readings of the material it takes a fair amount of time to prepare a lengthly discussion.

Anyway here is some of the documentation that I found.



http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/cfl.pdf

Section 5.

Loaded Firearms in a Public Place

It is unlawful to carry a loaded firearm on one's person or in a vehicle while in any public place, on any public street, or in any place where it is unlawful to discharge a firearm (Penal Code 1231(a)(1)

A firearm is deemed loaded when there is a live cartridge or shell in, or attached in any manner to, the firearm, including but not limited to, the firing chamber, magazine or clip thereof attached to the firearm. A muzzle loading firearm is deememd loaded when it is capped or primed and has a powdercharge and ball or shot in the barrel or cylinder (Penal Code 12031(g)

For the purpose of Penal Code section 12023 (commission or attempted commission of a felony while armed with a loaded firearm) a firearm is deemed loaded when both the firearm and the unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from the firearm are in the immediate possession of the same person.

Note, this section goes to the spirit of the law, and the common deffinition of what a loaded firearm is

It is unlawful for the driver of any motor vehicle, or the owner of any motor vehicle irrespective of whethere the owner is occupying the vehicle, to knowingly permit any person to cary a loaded firearm in the vehicle in violation of Penal Code section 12031, or Fish and Game Code sectoin 2006 Penal code 12034 Also, see "Other Prohibited Acts, Page 49.

In order to determine whether a firearm is loaded, peace officers are authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his or her person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street or in any prohibited area of an unincorproated territory. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to these provisions is, in itself grounds for arrest (Penal Code 12031)



This allows for an officer to inspect anyones guns, regardless of permit status, furtuer grounds for arrest are specified in the CCW permit application

http://www.sdsheriff.net/mgt_serv/licensing/ca_ccw_app.pdf

While exercising the privileges granted to the licensee under the terms of this license. The licensee shall not, when carrying a concealed weapon:
*Refuse to show the licence or surrender the concealed weapon to any peace officer upon demand
* Impede any peace officer in the performance of his/her duties


http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/appndxa/penalco/penco171e.htm

Loaded Firearm Defined

171e. A firearm shall be deemed loaded for the purposes of Sections 171c and 171d whenever both the firearm and unexpended ammunition capable of being discharged from such firearm are in the immediate possession of the same person.

In order to determine whether or not a firearm is loaded for the purpose of enforcing Section 171c or 171d, peace officers are authorized to examine any firearm carried by anyone on his person or in a vehicle while in any place or on the grounds or any place in or on which the possession of a loaded firearm is prohibited by Section 171c or 171d. Refusal to allow a peace officer to inspect a firearm pursuant to the provisions of this section constitutes probable cause for arrest for violation of Section 171c or 171d.


Imidiate posession = loaded in magazine = quick to make firearm functional


So in summary, I know for a fact (as illustrated above) That there is an extremly good chance that it will be construed as illigal to transport ammunition which is loaded in a magazine or clip thereof the firearm being transported. as it constitutes ammunition being in immediate posession.

The exact legality is relative to how nice the officer wants to be, how nice the judge wants to be, and how good of a lawyer you can afford. Its subjective, and in any subjective case, without a letter from the DOJ stating that its A-ok, then there is a darn good chance its going to get you in trouble, get your guns taken away, earn you a free nights stay somewhere and signifigantly depelte your bank account

Go ahead, do whatever you want, its your money/time/life thats going to be wasted on legal fees and court time.

If you admit to having a firearm (or you have a ccw which offers probable cause that you have a firearm), you have to allow the officer to inspect it to make sure it is the one on your permit, or if you don't have a permit to make sure it isn't loaded, refusal to allow the police officer to inspect the car for suspected firearms IS probable cause for arrest and they search it anyway.

Personal attacks and demands that I pull a post are uncalled for, and I don't feel that it is in keeping with the spirit of The high road. Its one thing to offer a correction and put your opinion forward for debate, its another to demand that someone pull their statement on the grounds that it had not YET been substantiated. this is an open forum for mutual discussion and education.

I don't mind being proved wrong, but there should be a certain amount of decorrum and courtasy, this community is what WE make of it.

 

[AJAX22]

I just inquired the following of the CA DOJ

Hello,

Some friends and I are engaged in an accademic debate over what constitutes a 'Loaded Firearm' for the purpouse of penal code Penal Code 12031(g)

Is it ok to transport a loaded magazine in conjunction with a unloaded firearm. provided that the magazine is not attached to the firearm at the time of transport.

Likewise is it alright to transport a full speedloader in conjunction with a revolver.


Is it ok to keep a rifle in the trunk of your car along with a seperate locked container that contains a loaded magazine?

Do stripper clips constitute a loaded magazine? as the clip does not at any time attach to the rifle during function. (the specific example would be that of the SKS)


on a second debate that is going on is whether or not a legal firearm, properly stored has to be disclosed during a traffic stop.

Is refusal to answer grounds for a probable cause search of the vehicle?

Are CCW permit holders required to reveal that they have a firearm in the vehicle?

We appriciate the help, it will be nice to resolve this debate.


Thank you,

we look forward to your answer

it will be nice to get the inside scoop on this.

I will update when they respond to me

 

[ready4shtf]

I'm in Texas....

Officer: Sir, Do you have any firearms in the vehicle.
Me: Just the shotgun visible on my rear window gun rack.......


Or...

Officer: Sir, Do you have any firearms in the vehicle.
Me: Sir, I am only legally required to tell you my name and address. Both of which are present on the DL I have provided.

Any LEO's want to comment about what they would do if answered in that fasion?


The only time I was actually asked, I just said "No" and they didnt think twice about it. (just speeding)

 

[rustymaggot]

sawdust v. ajax

a loaded magazine in the same locked container as the firearm considers it loaded. if the mag is in a locked side pocket of the locked case it is not considered a loaded firearm.

source, personal experiance from a road side stop many years ago. i am unsure what it is when the magazine is locked bu the firearm isnt and viceversa.

 

[kikr]

The question is posed out of concern for the Officers and the publics safety...If you are legal and you tell them "Yes, I have a legally stored firearm in the trunk" then thats normally the end of it. If you lie to them and they find it, they are going to wonder why your lieing and what else your lieing about. Honesty is the best policy.

 

[Otherguy Overby]

kikr:
The question is posed out of concern for the Officers and the publics safety...If you are legal and you tell them "Yes, I have a legally stored firearm in the trunk" then thats normally the end of it. If you lie to them and they find it, they are going to wonder why your lieing and what else your lieing about. Honesty is the best policy.

Grasshopper, this thread has morphed. California firearms restrictions have no effect in Florida.

In Florida there's no problem with telling an LEO there's a firearm in the trunk of your car. Conversely in California, there is. California law requires the officer to "determine" if the firearm is loaded, authorizes search, and the law states he gets to decide.

 

[kikr]

Location doesn't change the intent of the question, LEO's ask that question during every stop for the purpose of protecting themselves and the citizens in their jurisdiction. It's not a matter the cop looking to give you a hard time. The only people who have to be concerned with being honest with a LEO are the people who have something to hide. If your legal your legal. Its not really a matter of "Do I have to give this officer the respect of an honest answer" its a matter of an honest person giving respect to a person trying to protect themselves. Just my opinion.

 

[Sawdust]

Sorry Ajax22, but you will get no free passes here when you post incorrect information.

You want me to prove my position? How does one prove that a statute does not exist in the Penal Code?

No, it is up to *you* - the one who posts claiming a certain fact to back that claim up with citation.

You *still* have not proven your positions - even with all of the copy and paste that you posted; in fact, if you had bothered to read what you posted in bold, you would see that you're original claim is wrong:

"Here in the peoples republic of california a loaded magazine or speedloader for either a rifle or pistol constitutes a loaded firearm.

It doesn't matter how it is locked or stored, you aren't allowed to transport loaded magazines."

And I see that you haven't even attempted to prove your other claim (that a CA CCW licensee must inform a LEO upon contact).

So, yes, if you can't back-up your claims and you post false information, you are obligated to the membership here to remove those posts.

I see that you are relatively new around here; again, I would gently suggest to you that you sit back and observe and learn before you lose any more credibility.

I'm done with this.

Sawdust

 

[Gordon Fink]

The only people who have to be concerned with being honest with a LEO are the people who have something to hide.…

Well, you had better be damned sure that you have nothing to hide before you blithely give law enforcement a reason to search you and your possessions. Are you sure you haven’t broken a law that you weren’t aware of? Are you sure that co-worker you drove to lunch didn’t leave any contraband behind?

~G. Fink

 

['Card]

You *still* have not proven your positions - even with all of the copy and paste that you posted; in fact, if you had bothered to read what you posted in bold, you would see that you're original claim is wrong:

I disagree. I think the information he posted has, at the very least, demonstrated that there is some level of validity to his statement, depending upon how one construes the text. The fact that there appears to be some room for 'local interpretation' in the law wouldn't exactly shock anybody, would it? This is California you're talking about, after all.

I see that you are relatively new around here; again, I would gently suggest to you that you sit back and observe and learn before you lose any more credibility.

This is The High Road, where adults engage in conversations about subjects of mutual interest. We are not lawyers in a coutroom. Adult conversation (at least among people not burdened with massive inferiority complexes) does not consist of sitting around barking statutes at each other, and pretending that you're having a discussion.

You had the opportunity to engage in an interesting, perhaps even informative adult conversation about a law that could obviously be interpreted in several ways - and at the very least could be easily misconstrued by the well-intentioned. Instead, you decided to challenge, insult, provoke and repeatedly demand. And then you're going to issue a lecture on appropriate forum behavior and credibility?

*snork*

 

[gopguy]

So are you saying that in order to be completely legal in Ohio while transporting firearms to/from the range, the firearm's magazines must be empty as well...even if it is in a separate case from the firearm?

Hi Q Lock, The ammo, gun and magazines may be in the same bag......The rifle magazines may not be loaded even if in a seperate bag. Ohio only allows, now, the carrying of a loaded handgun in your car on your person or in a locked case. In both cases you must have a CCW license and in both cases they must be in "Plain Sight". You may not carry a loaded shotgun or rifle, you may not carry loaded magazines for a rifle or shotgun. That is Ohio DNR policy.

2923.16 and 1547.69 ORC No person shall knowingly transport or have a firearm in a motor vehicle, unless it is unloaded, and is carried in one of the following ways:

(1) In a closed package, box, or case;

(2) In a compartment which can be reached only by leaving the vehicle;

(3) In plain sight and secured in a rack or holder made for the purpose;

(4) In plain sight with the action open or the firearm stripped, or, if the firearm is of a type on which the action will not stay open or which cannot easily be stripped, in plain sight.

As used in this section, “unloaded” means, with respect to a firearm employing a percussion cap, flintlock, or other obsolete ignition system, that the firearm is uncapped, or that the priming charge is removed from the pan.

The above sections also apply to watercraft, except while LAWFULLY engaged in hunting.

The ODNR attitude is if you have loaded magazines for a rifle in your car then the gun is loaded.....even if the magazines are kept somewhere other than near the gun intended. This is not specifically spelled out......nor is having a loaded shotgun prior to hunting hours or after.....but you can be charged for that too.

 

[rustymaggot]

ok guys, simmerdownnow *tm(saturday night live).

lets argue politely. if the thread gets locked then we dont get to finish the debate.

 

[Q-Lock]

Thank you for that information Tim, I wasn't aware of the "loaded magazine issue," but it's good to know...that's for sure.

 

[gopguy]

Yeah, we have to be careful in the land of Bobby Taft. Like I said before the SKS with strippers clips is legal because that is not a magazine. The SKS does not make a bad little trunk gun.

 

[Mannlicher]

as with so many threads here, this one has degenerated into "My Dad can beat your Dad's butt". I think any possible benefit of continuing this thread has passed into the sunset.