First semi-auto centerfire: AR-15 vs .308 semi auto

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Seems you are looking for a plinker from what I gather then I say get and AR-15 in .223 then you have the ability to add the .300 Blackout upper without technically getting another rifle. That may keep the wife happy since you didn't fix that issue while you were dating. My wife knew before we got married that treading on my gun hobby was a line she didn't want to cross.

If you are looking for a hunter then go with an AR-10. I hunt primarily with the AR-10 but also have AR-15's in several other calibers. I prefer the AR-10 over them and most of my bolt rifles for hunting.
 
One option you might want to consider is the Colt LE901-16S. It is an AR style .308 that will also accept a standard 5.56 (223) upper. The rifle is shipped with a magazine adapter to allow the lower to accept standard AR style 5.56 magazines.

You would then have your choice of .308 or 5.56 by simply swapping the upper, and with the 5.56 inserting the magazine adapter into the magazine well.
 
Buck Horn's recommendation sounds good. I won't hunt deer in Maine with a 5.56, I also looked at 300 blackout but went with a 6.8. The 6.8 has almost the same trajectory as the 5.56 but has more knock down power. I have a 308 Ar but the lighter Ar 15 platform 6.8 is easer in the woods. The 6.8 uses a 270 projectile giving you the option of using 85 to 125 grain options. YMMV.
 
5.56 is out right off the bat. It doesn't go through cars or walls. It is not an effective stopper. .300 Black Out is a great idea but in a SHTF scenario you are going to find those cartridges falling off army trucks let along on shelves.

You have to really prioritize what your needs are. If you like cleaning your weapon every day, ARs are great. Sand Jammers we called them. You ask any Marine in the suck if he had a chance to carry an M14 over an M4 what would he do? M14 any day.
 
Buckhorn and goon: Oh My Gosh!!!! The Colt LE901-16S!!!!!!! How have I not come across this weapon before!!!!! I need to do alot of research, you tubing, reviews, any known problems etc, but I think its the answer to all my hopes and dreams!!! Can not possibly thank you all enough and especially for pointing me in the direction of the LE901-16S! Found it online for $2200, definitely a stretch on the budget but as I said for the perfect solution I would try for it. Even talked to the wife and expressed how this one firearm would meet the needs of multiple roles / other rifles all in one and would only require additional uppers, and she WENT FOR IT!!!! Not to buy now (or soon) as we're working towards selling and buying a house which is more important and has to happen first but she was accepting of the $2200 price tag given how much it meets my wants and needs.

Now to run a thread fishing for experiences with the LE901-16S.
 
My centerfire autoloaders are the FAL and the SAFN or FN49 in 30-06.

These old milsurps are very harsh on the brass (collecting brass on the battlefield for reloading not being the army's priority nr 1)

Also, H&K g3 virtually destroys its brass.

Don't know about the AR platform.

If you want to reload for your semi, you might want to sheck up on this
 
Cross compatibility is overrated.

During the first Obamascare, military ammo dried up. I could get all the .30-06 or .30-30 I wanted, any day of the week, tho. So, the bolt action and lever gun were still running.

I added an AR15. During the second panic, I saw the previous cartridges mentioned disappear, too. I wasn't just the military oriented shooters who saw a problem, everyone jumped in. BUT - I could still get ammo for my AR, and the few weeks it wasn't, nobody could find anything at all.

I got the AR in 6.8SPC. Ammo returned to the shelf within weeks and is readily available, I still can't find much of the other if I limit myself to large chain retail discounters. They weren't selling more than a box or two of it at a time, so when the ammo makers started rationing it according to their previous sales history, they didn't get any more than they previously had. The suppliers who kept crates of it did.

Don't buy into the .30 caliber or military ammo platforms and you don't suffer supply problems when your neighbors go beserk overextending their credit cards. Will it happen again? It's already predicted for the next election cycle, and no telling what will happen if Connecticut tries to act out some form of coerced turn in.
 
Centurian22, I was in a similar situation about what to get as an automatic centerfire rifle. Liked the light-weightness of the .223 rifles, but prefered the power of .308. I finally bought a used BAR in .308 for ~ $700. I wanted more power than a .223 could deliver and the .308 will come in handy for hunting also. At about 7 1/2 lbs, its easier to carry than the military .308's. Will add a scope to it next year to increase my accuracy. Yes I know it doesn't have a 20-round magazine and that the barrell will get hot sooner, etc., but the lighter weight, the .308 power, the price, and the reliable Browning action, all influenced me to go this route and get an automatic hunting rifle instead of a heavier, more expensive military version. Good luck on whatever you choose.
 
Another option might be the S&W M&P Sport for around $600. If you're really wanting a precision style AR, the Sport ain't it. But if you're wanting an economical 5.56 rifle, the Sport may be that.
 
Goon: when I first got into looking at AR's the M&P Sport is what I thought was going to be 'my gun' and I'm sure I would still *Probably* be plenty happy with it at first especially for the good price. The problem is I started looking more and more into the details and features and figuring out that I'm pretty sure I want a mid length gas system, free float handguard, and 1:7" twist. Now I've somehow 'graduated' from a $600 gun to a $2300 gun lol.

Agtman: yes communication is very important. I made the mistake of getting caught referring to her as "SWMBO" one time and she VERY clearly communicated to me just how much she didn't care for it. I think its very descriptive and accurate but since she doesn't appreciate it, its now banned from my vocabulary.
 
I say get an ar 15. They are reliable when you take decent care of them. Don't burry it in your back yard for a week and then try to run it, and if you do bury it wrap it in plastic bags first.

In all seriousness, you can get one rifle and multiple uppers. If you want lightweight go 16" upper flat top etc. Want to put it on a bench and punch a single hole in paper, get a 24" free float with a heavy barrel.

When looking at reloading, the popularity of the ar means I have not purchased brass, and I have 500+ of once fired. I simply shoot and pick up from the guys banging away and
leaving it all behind. I even turned down brass the other day because in my area its that easy to find.

I just started shooting a 308 semi auto, RRA LR-8 PREDATOR. its not LMT by any means but I can buy two for the price if an lmt. Its also wicked accurate.

All in all, shooting is fun, enjoy your next rifle, whatever it may be
 
Centurian22 said:
when I first got into looking at AR's the M&P Sport is what I thought was going to be 'my gun' and I'm sure I would still *Probably* be plenty happy with it at first especially for the good price. The problem is I started looking more and more into the details and features and figuring out that I'm pretty sure I want a mid length gas system, free float handguard, and 1:7" twist. Now I've somehow 'graduated' from a $600 gun to a $2300 gun lol.

In that case...

You may look at starting with a PSA lower. Sometimes they have assembled lowers complete with stock for $149, but you may want to upgrade the FCG and stock. You could recoup some of the cost of those parts if you sell them later. The receiver extension (buffer tube) on these is mil-spec diameter, but maybe not made of 7075 aluminum, which is what mil-spec calls for. Still, I don't think it is on the M&P Sport either.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...e-blem-lower-classic-edition-no-magazine.html

With a PSA lower assembled to your liking for maybe $300 (assuming upgraded FCG and stock), you could either get a PSA midlength upper assembly or look for one from another company. PSA doesn't always have stuff in stock, so you have to keep watching and buy when the getting is good. Their shipping is also painfully slow sometimes, but we all know that and expect it. I'll still be buying from them when I get ready to assemble another AR.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...avy-upper-without-bcg-or-charging-handle.html

http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...nato-stainless-steel-hammer-forged-upper.html

Or you could go with my personal favorite, which is Bravo Company (BCM). They also make great mid-lengths, but at a little more cost. IIRC, a "standard" midlength upper assembly is $459 or $535 if you want the cold hammer forged barrel.

http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/AR-15-16-Mid-Length-Group-s/27.htm

Make sure you add a BCG (bolt carrier group) and a charging handle if you need one.

No matter what though, a guy could put a very good AR midlength together for way less than $2,300. Even if you started with a BCM complete lower (about $395 shipped from G&R Tactical or Rainier Arms), you should still be able to do it for about $1,100.
 
< Deleted by ugaarguy >

5.56 is out right off the bat. It doesn't go through cars or walls. It is not an effective stopper. * * * If you like cleaning your weapon every day, ARs are great. Sand Jammers we called them. You ask any Marine in the suck if he had a chance to carry an M14 over an M4 what would he do? M14 any day.

<Deleted by ugaarguy>

I own several M1As & M1Gs and love 'em. But the above post labels you an idiot. 5.56mm rounds do, and have, penetrated "cars or walls," and it's absolutely an effective stopper within the range for which the 5.56mm cartridge was designed.

And notwithstanding the old 'Nam stories, many of which are true, todays quality M4s (and Mforgeries), firing today's standardized 5.56mm/.223 ammo, run 100% without cleaning for well over a thousand rounds, as long as they're kept well-lubed.
 
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And notwithstanding the old 'Nam stories, many of which are true,

Two major problems with the old 'Nam stories are 1) we had a number of non volunteers who didn't want to be there forced to learn about a weapon that was still out of the mainstream in the Armed Forces. The older trainers and soldiers in Command didn't understand the theory behind it or had any experience with it. There was no internal support it, and that played into the hands of the anti war supporters and generally disgruntled forced laborers sent into harms way.

You, you, and you, go into combat and guess what, we'll spit on you if you get back.

Second, the so called problems with the M16 were based on the sudden expansion of production ordered by Washington, in which Colt had NO choice. They were told to suddenly ramp up production 4X and that forced them to send out for parts they could only inspect once received.

One item specifically in that regard were barrels, and it's a documented situation that a large number were received, went thru inspection, fielded, and found to be inadequate with chambers that measured just a few thousandths undersize. A replacement program that was conducted in the field in sight and sound of combat gave our soldiers a new rifle if his was found out of spec.

Of course, that soldier still needed to have an active interest in keeping it running, and if it could be made to become inoperable, then ok - he's out of the fight and lags back.

You can't force people into war, it's exactly why we had so many come from Europe. Immigrants would pay outrageous rates for passage to American where they wouldn't be fodder for the campaigns of competing kings.

The second issue was the Government approving the use of reclaimed powder that was shown to have ingredients that separated in handling. Too much of the inert filler settled and in loading operations the ammo had powder that was out of balance. Those loads when fired deposited a higher amount of residue which then created more corrosion than designed.

Tight chambers, bad powder, not the design. It was the DC "whiz kids" who interfered with normal production and the unintended results of their monkeying around created a perfect storm of disaster for those who volunteered or were press ganged into service.

Look further than public myth and street word of mouth, you find out the real goings on.

AR15 vs AR10? I did my own personal experiment over 20 years. I owned a HK91 in .308, and carried in service the M16 variants. While hunting, I could carry as little load as I liked, still hunting and walking over miles of rough terrain and taking all the breaks for setting up ambush points or working out of tree stands. A 12 pound rifle with ten rounds is heavy at the end of the day.

The M16 with full field kit including ten full magazines, water, gear, helmet, pack, etc, would easily top 50-60 pounds on duty, yet the rifle was the least of it, and it was not burdensome to nearly as high a degree. Plus, I could carry a lot more ammo in comparison.

Overall, I'll take the AR15. Not much fan of the 5.56, but I don't disrespect it. Compared to the .308, tho, the recoil is substantially less, which means the reaction and recovery is much less getting the next shot. That is one reason that 5.56 can accurately outshoot the .308 in combat. And why it does it consistently in Service Rifle competition.

If you want to carry around a rifle all day that won't wear you out, gives you more accurate handling, shoots user friendly, and which you can kit out with a lot more options, the AR15 is it.

If you want a heavy rifle with a lot of recoil that inhibits shooting hundreds of rounds in practice at the range, get the big boy calibers.

I know what the sales figures are telling me which is more fun and a better way to go. But, I already knew that.
 
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I've reopened the thread. From here out this thread stays on topic, and polite.
 
Thank you ugaarguy, I didn't see the offending messages but I can imagine what they contained. I appreciate you keeping the thread open as I am learning alot from all the input even if the 7.62x51 vs 5.56x45 is a 'hot topic' for some.
 
I have 223, 308 and 300 blk.

I just wanted to add that DPMS has a compact hunter (16" barrel) AR-10 platform that weighs 7.75 pounds.

They also just came out with their G2 line and have one version that weighs 7.25 pounds (a4?). They also have a G2 hunter with a 20" barrel that weighs 7.75.

If I could do it over, I would get the G2 hunter with the 20" barrel and would generally use 5-10 round magazines.
 
txblackout said:
They also just came out with their G2 line and have one version that weighs 7.25 pounds (a4?). They also have a G2 hunter with a 20" barrel that weighs 7.75.

If I could do it over, I would get the G2 hunter with the 20" barrel and would generally use 5-10 round magazines.

I think the DPMS looks pretty cool as well. I've heard scattered complaints about their QC, so I'd wait a year or so to make sure they get any growing pains out of the way.

But at about 8 pounds loaded with a 10 round magazine, it's not going to be too heavy to hunt with.
 
Okay so I'm late to the party and I don't know if what I'm going to add is what was removed but... The biggest mistake I see people make in the gun world is buying a gun they can't afford to feed. The second biggest mistake is buying more gun than is needed.

When I go to the Fort Bliss Rod and Gun club (my local range) for a competition I see the kind of shooters that lots of people aspire to be. They have good fundamentals, excellent gun safety, they know their guns, know the point of impact and can shoot well under a variety of conditions. When I go just to practice it feels like I am surrounded by shooters stuck in a time warp. They make it to the range, it has been a while since they last shot, so they shoot their guns in the most fundamentally easy way possible, usually from a rest, or freehand at a very close target. Before long their ammunition budget is exceeded and they head back home. In a couple months they will be back to do it all over again.

Which brings me to a personal pet peeve, the semi-automatic 308. They are idolized online as the main battle rifle of days gone by, the perfect combination of power and range. People look at the numbers on paper and fall in love. But in reality their size/weight/recoil/cost make them a burden to most people who buy them. Even among people who reload, the price of ammo can become a burden if you want to consistently train with one.

The AR15/223 combo is a great compromise between what people do 99.99% of the time (range use) and the other .01% of the time, self-defense. On the one hand it offers complete side-to-side penetration of a piece of paper backed by cardboard, and on the other a single well placed premium bullet will stop a man dead in his tracks in realistic self-defense scenarios. Plus reloading for the 223 is easy. Step 1 is to pick up everyone else's brass.

So my recommendation is the AR15 for a simple fact that you are much more likely to develop and grow as a shooter using the lighter/cheaper/tamer gun.
 
txblackout: I'll take a look at those, thanks I'm not familiar with them yet.

NWcityguy2: Thank you for laying out in detail almost exactly how I feel about the .223 vs .308 debate.

Update: So far the more research I do, the more and more I like the Colt LE901-16s. I'm looking hard far and wide for whats wrong with it and I'm not finding much. $2200-$2400 is a bit steep but given all that it does and how perfectly it meets my needs (and my wife's restrictions (fewer guns) I'm ok with it. I was also somewhat surprised by the 1:12" twist but with a 16" barrel its not meant for lobbing 175gr+ bullets past 1000 yards. Though one review I read did take it to 1200yards with some success. I think it will give me a good place to start and then I can add uppers in 5.56 and .300 thereafter.

Question to anyone with 5.56 experience out there: I'm debating 16" vs 20" (maybe 22") barrels. I'm not too concerned about weight, my concerns are keeping it shorter for manuverability indoors or in thick woods vs the increased muzzle blast and/or flash and/or increased recoil / muzzle jump that should be significantly reduced with a longer barrel from what I read. In a perfect world I would try to get to the range with people that had one of each (an AR w/ 16" barrel and an AR w/ 20"+ barrel) and shoot both to really get the most intimate understanding of the difference that I could. But unless I'm able to make that happen, asking here is the next best I can do. Thanks.
 
I have a 556 w muzzle brake the 16in barrel is great with muzzle brake. The flash hider is use less in civilian world.
 
How bad does the brake amplify the sound / muzzle blast? I like the function of brakes / compensators but am concerned with the use of one in the confined space of a house. I guess to partially answer my own question from above I need to really narrow down what role of the rifle is most important to me and focus on that. If need be I'll eventually buy separate uppers to fit each role.
 
Honestly if you're thinking about buying both, buy a complete AR15 first. I'd never heard of the Colt gun until this thread but IMHO a AR10 lower that will accept a AR15 upper, if I am understanding the concept, is an solution looking for a problem. You could buy a complete AR15 lower for $150-200.

For 16" vs 20", unless you want a rifle length gas system I'd recommend getting a 16" midlength with a lightweight barrel. It is the best of all worlds for a general use gun. That being said a carbine is good and so are government profile barrels. A 20" barrel will get you some more velocity, but any barrel longer than that starts moving away from an affordable general purpose gun and into a specialty varmint gun. PSA, Del-ton and BCM all make a good gun. My 3-gun rifle sports a 20" barrel but I will only ever use that gun outdoors with lots of room to maneuver about. If it didn't have a very specific role I would of gone with a 16" barrel.

Honestly though, slow down. Having a $3000-4000 gun plan that includes multiple guns and calibers usually results in a lot of wasted money. If you've got money to spend you could buy an awesome BCM upper that will last a lifetime worth of shooting and never have to worry about another semi-auto in your life. People buying multiple guns back to back are a big reason why every Buy/Sell/Trade forum are littered with almost brand new guns.
 
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