First semi-auto centerfire: AR-15 vs .308 semi auto

[NWcityguy2]

How bad does the brake amplify the sound / muzzle blast? I like the function of brakes / compensators but am concerned with the use of one in the confined space of a house. I guess to partially answer my own question from above I need to really narrow down what role of the rifle is most important to me and focus on that. If need be I'll eventually buy separate uppers to fit each role.

Brakes are awesome but they make the gun a ton louder. If you are shooting at a range next to other people be a team playing and don't get a competition brake. If you are in doubt, get a hybrid brake/flash hider and enjoy some of the benefits of a brake without the side concussion. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCMGUNFIGHTER-Compensator-MOD-0-5-56-p/bcm-gfc-mod-0-556.htm

 

[goon]

Honestly if you're thinking about buying both, buy a complete AR15 first. I'd never heard of the Colt gun until this thread but IMHO a AR10 lower that will accept a AR15 upper, if I am understanding the concept, is an solution looking for a problem. You could buy a complete AR15 lower for $150-200.

Personally, for the $2200 price tag of the Colt being discussed, I also think I'd just go with two separate rifles. But I will say that in the end, everybody has to buy what he or she will be happy with. I'd try to find one to handle and examine close up first though - sometimes you're sure you've found your dream rifle and then when you handle it... you haven't.

 

[hentown]

<...> I skimmed enough to feel confident in recommending an AR to the OP. There are plenty of fine ARs that can be had for around $800. One of the best buys around was/is the Windham Weaponry Sight Ready Carbine. JoeBob was selling them for $749, with free shipping.

I also like shooting .300 Blackout for all the reasons mentioned by others in this thread.

<...>

Having built a bunch of ARs, and being a Class 06 ammo manufacturer, <> I feel that the OP has more than sufficient information to make a cogent decision.

 

[agtman]

* * * Having built a bunch of ARs, and being a Class 06 ammo manufacturer, I feel that the OP has more than sufficient information to make a cogent decision.

I agree. Hence, the bump-ski.

 

[Centurian22]

Ok to all those who are recommending the two separate rifles: part of me agrees, I would prefer separate systems. However, as previously stated, the wife is NOT in favor of several more separate weapons as she already feels I have too many. I would entertain the idea of two separate systems if I am convinced that for the same price or less (which is what many of you seem to be advertising here) I could own systems of equal or greater quality to the Colt LE901. So here is my challenge: An AR that meets my AR wishes, and a good .308 AR with the 'leftover' money. I'll say $2200 for the LE901 plus $600 for the AR upper totaling a $2800 total budget.

AR requirments: preferably an aluminum receiver not polymer, 1:7" or 1:8" twist 16-20" barrel, 5.56 chamber (or .223 wylde), mid length (or rifle if 20") gas system, free floated hand guard. If possible I would like this from a manufacturer with a warrentee (as the colt will have), but would also accept building Ideas. Then as said after meeting that wish list a .308 semi auto (preferably AR style) for the remainder of the cash.

 

[goon]

For $2,800... wow. Now that's a budget!

I can't imagine you not being able to pull this together for that.

 

[js8588]

Seems like a PTR 91F and a DPMS AR or Ruger SR 223 http://www.ruger.com/products/sr556VT/models.html if you've a preference for a Piston AR would do you fine and come in well under $2800

 

[Centurian22]

I'm just trying to be fair with the comparison on the price. I don't want to spend that much, and definitely won't be doing it anytime soon or all at once even when I do actually make this purchase but figured it was only right.

I really have to say, now that I've been turned on to this LE901 its going to be really hard to pry me away from it. Not that its a bad thing, anyone should be so lucky as to find a single gun that meets all their wants and needs to a 'T' in one system.

Speaking of being one system thats something I have neglected to mention / account for. By being one lower I only have to upgrade one trigger, grip, stock etc (if I so choose or want to upgrade that is) compared to having to upgrade two of each of those components if I bought them as separate systems.

 

[js8588]

If there's one gun that you want and you just can't get it out of your head that you want/need it, get it! Don't worry about the money or what any of us say here. Make the wife and yourself happy.

 

[benEzra]

I have a 556 w muzzle brake the 16in barrel is great with muzzle brake. The flash hider is use less in civilian world.

I think that for civilian *defensive* purposes, a flash suppressor is actually a very good idea. The primary purpose of a flash suppressor is to reduce the flash in the shooter's line of sight, so as to avoid flash-dazzling yourself when shooting in low light. I've shot 16" 5.56mm/.223's with bare muzzles and with good flash suppressors, and have shot next to 16" and 14.5" carbines with brakes, and there is a big difference in line-of-sight muzzle flash, as well as a huge difference in muzzle blast. For a range or competition gun, the slightly faster splits with a brake probably make sense, but in the HD role the increased loudness and flash caused by a brake would not be worth the slightly reduced muzzle movement, in my opinion.

My own AR is set up with a Smith Vortex flash suppressor, which seems to do a very good job of directing the muzzle blast and flash forward, and subjectively it is no louder or more annoying to shoot than my 3.5" barreled 9mm. I have shot next to AR's and CETME's with brakes, though, and I would never, ever want to fire a braked gun indoors; they sounded like a short-barreled .357.

 

[Trent]

For a range or competition gun, the slightly faster splits with a brake probably make sense, but in the HD role the increased loudness and flash caused by a brake would not be worth the slightly reduced muzzle movement, in my opinion.

Yeah. People don't even like to be next to a braked gun in our casual rifle shoots.

In High Power and High Power Sporting Rifle.. no go. Too obnoxious.. hurts the Zen of the other shooters near you.

High Power Sporting Rifle:
"3.16.1 Compensators and Muzzle Brakes—The use of compensators and muzzle brakes is prohibited."

High Power rules are similar (section and wording) but allow for "cheater tubes" for longer site base to be installed under specific conditions.

My own AR is set up with a Smith Vortex flash suppressor, which seems to do a very good job of directing the muzzle blast and flash forward, and subjectively it is no louder or more annoying to shoot than my 3.5" barreled 9mm. I have shot next to AR's and CETME's with brakes, though, and I would never, ever want to fire a braked gun indoors; they sounded like a short-barreled .357.

I also use a Vortex on my AR, and would add a recommendation for it.

As far as brakes CETME will definitely dig a hole in the ground when shooting prone; and add SCAR17 to the list. I shoot that indoors frequently in the winter and learned early on to "GET THE MUZZLE ALL THE WAY OUT OF THE DAMN WINDOW" before dropping the hammer. Ear protection is not sufficient to protect you when you shoot them indoors. Kind of like getting punched in the face by an invisible guy, while trying to run down the road. Comes out of nowhere and stuns you for a moment.



(Rifle was still wearing a pink cancer awareness ribbon at the time of the photo.. I usually don't 'dress them up' lol)

 

[agtman]

* * * and add SCAR17 to the list.

Price range check?

The NIB SCAR 17S on the shelf at the LGS is wearing a $3,200 price tag and its mags are not interchangable w/ the SR-25 pattern mags (e.g., Magpul's 7.62/.308 mag).

 

[goon]

I think that for civilian *defensive* purposes, a flash suppressor is actually a very good idea. The primary purpose of a flash suppressor is to reduce the flash in the shooter's line of sight, so as to avoid flash-dazzling yourself when shooting in low light.

Yep. If you can get the flash suppressor, get the flash suppressor.

 

[Squeaky Wheel]

I'm late to the discussion and only skim read many of the comments, so apologies if this has already been covered. You mention that this would be your first semi-auto centerfire and that you already shoot .308 in bolts (and reload). Think about how much you think that you plan to shoot the new rifle. A semi-auto provides the efficiency and temptation to blow through ammo much more rapidly than a bolt. Compared to a bolt rifle, most semis are harder on the brass during extraction so you typically won't get near as many reloads as compared to a bolt gun. Good luck with your decision and enjoy whatever you go with.

 

[Centurian22]

I happened across an add and article about Core Rifle Systems, specifically the core15/core30 combo deal:

http://core15rifles.com/core15-moe-and-core30-moe-rifle-combo.html

Curious if anyone has input about the quality of these weapons or experience dealing with the company. This would appear to be a potential 'separate system' competitor to the Colt LE901-16S.

 

[goon]

Just to add some more craziness to the conversation, check out the MGI Hydra. Basically an AR style rifle with interchangeable magazine wells and upper assemblies.

There is a .308 version in testing, but I'm not sure if it's available yet.

https://www.mgi-military.com/store/index.php?category=10


I will say this - AR lowers are pretty cheap. You could have a perfectly functional complete lower for about $150 from Palmetto State Armory (and that will probably be one of my next firearms acquisitions when finances allow). Snap an upper on that when you can afford to and you're on the way to the range.

If you only have one lower (like an AR-10 style lower with adapters to use other calibers) and that lower fails in some way, you aren't shooting anything from any of your uppers. If you have a whole rifle in each caliber, one rifle can fail and you still have the other to take to the range.

 

[Trent]

Price range check?

The NIB SCAR 17S on the shelf at the LGS is wearing a $3,200 price tag and its mags are not interchangable w/ the SR-25 pattern mags (e.g., Magpul's 7.62/.308 mag).

was talking about muzzle brakes.

 

[thump_rrr]

For starters you mentioned a budget of between $1,000-$1,400.
You also mentioned that it would need the approval of the Chief Financial Officer.
The first question that needs to be asked in this situation is how much would you like to shoot this firearm and what is your ammo budget for the year?

My problem is that I have no problem shooting 100 rounds of .308 precision rounds in an outing.
I can shoot 2-3 times as much 5.56 ammo for the same cost.

Since I live in Canada the AR platform is restricted, meaning range use only.

I currently own 3 AR-15's and would have more in different calibers if they weren't restricted.

I have several .308 bolt guns and a couple of M-14 platform semi autos.

If I were in a free state in the USA and was in your shoes I would start with an AR-15 in 5.56.

It is cheap, light, far mor economical to shoot than .308.
You can go as cheap or as expensive as you like in the AR-15 range.
I own a Stag 3G (18") and a Noveske Afghan (14.5") and would buy or build either one of those rifles again.

There are many brands such as BCM, PSA, etc which we do not see much of in Canada.

Best of luck with your decision.

Edited to add the following

With the low cost of AR-15 components available in the USA I would build my own AR without giving it a second thought.

You can most likely buy most of the components slowly over time even without the approval or knowledge of the CFO.
You can buy a Core stripped upper and lower for $200.00
Add a CMT lower parts kit for $65
CMT bolt for another $100
Add another $50.00 to complete the upper receiver for a forward assist and ejection port cover.
You can get a Vltor A5 stock combo kit for $225 to complete the lower.

Add a Noveske 16" Recon barrel with a headspaced bolt for $515
A 15" Noveske keymod handguard for $300
Throw in another $200 for a top quality brake and charging handle and you built yourself a kick butt low recoil, flat shooting, sub MOA AR-15 for around $1600.

I think I just built my next AR-15

 

[Trent]

Well, $2800 certainly puts a SCAR back on the table.

Either flavor, too. Big 'un or Little 'un.

 

[Centurian22]

I appreciate all of the input from all different points of view even if they have already been stated. Redundancy of input gives me a sense that its a tried, true and common option. The "progress of this thread" has been for me to learn about different options and people's (who likely have more hands on experience than I do with the semi-auto platforms) sugestions which I have done and continue to do.

As to the budget, nothing was ever set in stone. I started at the $1000-$1400 price point for one rifle as that was what my research up to that point in AR's had led me to. Nothing was ever approved or extended. I was merely exploring further options (up to the $2800 mark) after looking at the LE901 which I was very impressed by. As I have said, I can see the advantages of having separate systems and am considering and looking into that. The contradiction with that is the Wife's request to not add many more firearms to what I already have or plan to obtain.

I don't want this thread closed as I am learning alot and again appreciate all of the time and effort put into the input, its all helpful to me.

 

[Centurian22]

Now I'll attempt to answer everyone else's posts:

Thanks for all the info about brakes, it was very helpful. Especially that in a home defense situation the trade off of added noise and flash from a brake is not worth any recoil reduction or fraction of a second gain (or loss as it may be) to follow up shots. I'll definitly stick to a good flash hider at first unless I see a need or desire to add a break for range time or competition if I can put it on a different system from the home defense set up.

I'm definitly going to do some research into all the new systems mentioned by everyone as time allows, thanks for the suggestions.

As to how much I would like to shoot and my ammo budget. Since I work away from home for long periods of time (and have a wife, two sons, four dogs, and a collection of other pets to tend to when I am home) the biggest restricting factor for my shooting is time, not ammo or ammo funds. Once I have the system the wife only grumbles a little about ammo purchases but would rather I get the practice and use them rather than have wasted the cost of the firearm.

I've thought of building over time and keeping it on the "down low" from the wife but thats not how I do things in my marriage. I may build over time but will be honest with the wife about my purchases.

Thump_rrr that does sound like a very sweet tack drilling rig you laid out, I'll definitly look into the components you mention and I appreciate your detailed discription alot!

Trent: DROOL! Lol $2800 is reserved for meeting the needs of both a .308 and .223 system either together (like the colt 901) or separately. With all the options out there as much as I would LOVE a SCAR, I can't in good faith drop that much cash in one place for one system.

Goon (and others) regarding extra lowers and separate systems: I actually had a positive and lengthy discussion with the wife tonight about some of these guns and the pros and cons of one system with switchable uppers vs two (or more) independent systems along with the price points. It got late so there is more to talk about but at least the foundations have been laid. I also got her to understand the potential "need" for a defense system that holds more than our shotgun (4rds) or handgun (17rds) in terms of multiple attackers or defense from looters etc. I also educated her about how .223 ammo can be a safer HD round than 00buck or 9mm in terms of retained energy after passing through walls.

I do like the idea of getting to shoot more with the .223 / 5.56 but still have trouble getting away from the power and advantages of a semi .308. Another thing I thought of was if all I have is the one bolt gun for .308 and it fails for some reason then any/all ammo I may have saved up for it becomes useless (from a defense standpoint). Truly in my perfect world, I would have a bolt action and 1-2 semi autos (probably of different lengths / setups) for each caliber I chose to keep stock of. Unfortunately this will remain a fantasy until I either hit the lotto or retire wealthy and debt free with plenty of storage space and my own back yard range.

Everything that has been shared with me in this thread has been helpful especially in having the conversations with my wife and helping me figure out all that I can ahead of time before putting hands to metal and cash to counter. Thank you all.

Edited to add after research: What in Tarnation makes the Ruger SR556 worth anywhere near $1900?!?! Am I missing something? Is it just because its piston driven?

 

[Dean1818]

I went through the same decision process and ended up with an AR15 in 6.8

It was a great choice. Its puts pigs down very well all the way out to 275 yards with a Hornady SST bullet


I will add an upper later this year in 223 in 1x7 twist (So I can shoot some of the heavier hunting bullets, as well as the cheap stuff)

I will also add the 22 bolt from CMMG to shoot 22s (If they become available and cheap again)

 

[Centurian22]

Well seems like interest has dropped off in this thread but for anyone still following here's an update: after more extended discussions with the wife I have been informed that I don't "need" a semi auto .308 now (maybe later), and should focus on the AR. Much to my surprise I was told to "figure out if I want to build or buy and plan out / itemize my build if I choose to go that route."

There is an ever so slightly increasing chance of being able to do a part by part build over time starting in the near ish future.

So now begins my build search.

 

[powder]

OK, just put your wife on the line so we can get there with less coffee being spilled!

Go with a SIG in 7.62x39...halfway in between, and MUCH cheaper ammo supply WITH increased availability...

 

[EchoM70]

For an AR I'd recommend getting a Colt LE6920, throw a free float hand guard on there and be done with it. It'll do just as good as a range toy as an AR10 without the cost of the platform and everything associated with it.

Or if finances are a problem and can't shell out that much cash you could go the build route, buying a piece here and there until it's done. Or alternatively you could put a Colt or whatever AR you decide on layaway and break up the payment over a 3 month period (90 days.)