I'm watching the documentary "Grizzly Man" on the Discovery Channel right now..

[Mornard]

My oldest daughter's reaction..."Ha, ha...he got pooped out by a bear..."

I couldn't have said it better myself...

 

[j grimes]

I enjoyed wacthing this show

I just imagen me and my 24/47 8mm yugo going thuogh the woods blasting bears away .he would run around sceaming hands on head ,i say ,well im trying to save little bear : Damm the torpetos full speed ahead!

 

[spooney]

My girlfriend grew up on a ranch and has a better understanding of animals than I ever will have, her opinion on him could basically be boiled down in the statement "he has a ten year olds understanding of animals."
The only sad part about this whole tale was how he got his g/f killed in the process. Especially sad considering he basically minimized her existance in the project and ignored the fact that she was (wisely I might add) afraid of the bears.
Another thing my g/f pointed out was the fact that he wasn't truely unarmed as he claimed to be, he must have had an ax or a knife with him, those are better weapons than a damn frying pan any day.

 

[Jammer Six]

My girlfriend

The only sad part about this whole tale was how he got his g/f killed in the process.

Your girlfriend probably has a different take on that.

I understand that women think for themselves, and that they make their own decisions, even on issues so important that it costs them their lives.

Why do shooters attract women who allow them to think so little of women in general?

 

[bull420]

i agree with you all he was nuts. i am suprised he didnt get ate befor he did. i didnt see it on tv but i rented the movie and it has some pretty funny moments in it like when the fox stole his hat and he is cussing a blue strek wile he runs after it and when he builds the fish a path up stream. but for the likfe of me i cant figgure out why his girl frend didnt hit the bear with an ax or run away very fast wile the bear was eating him.

 

[Jammer Six]

but for the likfe of me i cant figgure out why his girl frend didnt hit the bear with an ax or run away very fast wile the bear was eating him.

Just purely for the sake of discussion, run where?

 

[bull420]

i dont know maby find a tree to climb or just get out of the area.

 

[Cosmoline]

I don't think she would have gotten far. That bear was after a meal. Besides, thanks to Timmy boy they had put themselves square in the middle of a mess of bear trails running through alder thickets. Nowhere to run to or hide.

 

[spooney]

Your girlfriend probably has a different take on that.

I understand that women think for themselves, and that they make their own decisions, even on issues so important that it costs them their lives.

Why do shooters attract women who allow them to think so little of women in general?

I don't think lowly of women in general, I just think that were it not for his influence she probably wouldn't have been running around Alaska trying to get eaten by a bear.

 

[Jammer Six]

I don't think lowly of women in general, I just think that were it not for his influence she probably wouldn't have been running around Alaska trying to get eaten by a bear.

She made a choice. She chose to go with him, and she paid for that choice with her life.

Treadwell "influenced" everyone he came in contact with. Everyone but her chose to roll their eyes, wave bye-bye, and stay where they were.

Everyone but her.

Blaming her death on Treadwell implies that she wasn't capable of making her own mind up, and saying he "got his g/f killed in the process..." robs her of all respect, and indicates an attitude that women are somehow less capable of choice than Treadwell.

She grew up with animals. She knew what bears were.

It was her second summer with Treadwell. And that year, they LEFT, and then they CAME BACK. They had a fight about it.

She didn't just choose to go with him, she chose to go with him THREE SEPARATE TIMES.

In spite of her fear of bears.

If the bears were something else, if they were Viet Cong, or Al Qaeda, or some "worthy" cause, we would be talking about how she "gave her life", and we wouldn't be calling either of them fools.

None of the choices they made are choices I would make. I wouldn't do any of the things they did. I wouldn't go where they went without a Winchester 300, LOTS of ammunition, and I wouldn't get a wink of sleep the one night I stayed.

Whatever else you say about Treadwell and his Old Lady, you have to give them this: it wasn't just talk.

They didn't just make posts to some insignificant gun board. They didn't just sit in a restaurant and philosophize about bears over a gourmet meal with a nice red wine.

They went out into the bush, lived like infantrymen, and laid their asses on the line to back up what they believed.

They were True Believers, however misguided we may think them, and they followed their beliefs further than most of us here ever have.

The difference between them and other True Believers, like suicide bombers or the Klan, was that they didn't harm anyone else in their process. They didn't compel you or I to agree with them, they restricted their impact on us to ethical debate, they attempted to sway us with personal demonstration and the merits of their case, rather than compelling us with force. Even when Treadwell came face to face with those he considered to be his "enemy", even when they took actions that he believed harmed his cause, he remained hidden, and didn't resort to inflicting his beliefs on others. That, also, is an important point- many of us, including many participants on this board, would be more than happy to inflict our beliefs on others, by force, by shouting, or by any other means that we think would work. But not Treadwell. With him, the ends did NOT justify the means, and not only did he recognize that, but he restricted his actions accordingly.

They lived what they believed, and they died for it. That is more than the overwhelming majority of us will do.

It made them more than a little weird, and their choices aren't choices I would make.

Personally, I think they were wrong. I think their deaths prove that they were wrong.

But I respect the choice to go the distance, in an ethical manner, and I refuse to let that choice, that she made, that she died for, be stripped from her by some troglodytic belief that women can't make choices without challenging that belief.

 

[Cosmoline]

Think of it this way. If Timmy Boy had claimed to be an expert mountain climber and convinced her to climb Denali freestyle with her, then led her to their mutual deaths in a storm due to recklessness, her death would be HIS fault. He was the one who claimed to be able to live around the bears. He led her to believe he had some special ability to prevent things from getting dangerous.

 

[KIDGLOCK]

Nature always culls out the weak, well in this case DUMB AS A BOX OF ROCKS!!

 

[spooney]

Think of it this way. If Timmy Boy had claimed to be an expert mountain climber and convinced her to climb Denali freestyle with her, then led her to their mutual deaths in a storm due to recklessness, her death would be HIS fault. He was the one who claimed to be able to live around the bears. He led her to believe he had some special ability to prevent things from getting dangerous.

+1 I firmly believe that from watching that movie that he was convinced that he was not in danger from the bears, that he had some sort of special ability to make the bears not hurt him. He in all probability convinced her of the same idea, that is why he imo is responsible for her death, I realize that she has a choice, as we all have a choice but it is difficult to make a sound choice with bad information.

 

[Jammer Six]

Think of it this way. If Timmy Boy had claimed to be an expert mountain climber and convinced her to climb Denali freestyle with her, then led her to their mutual deaths in a storm due to recklessness, her death would be HIS fault. He was the one who claimed to be able to live around the bears. He led her to believe he had some special ability to prevent things from getting dangerous.

Nope.

There are two very large differences. If you go on such a climb, beyond your level of skill, (what divers would call a "trust me" dive) the price you pay is your own fault. What you are advocating is a lack of personal responsibility, and is abhorent (or should be abhorent) to any shooter.

The other key difference is that an "expert mountain climber" is highly skilled.

Treadwell had no such skill, and that fact was readily apparent to everyone.

If you put a hundred people in a room, and flip a hundred coins, fifty of them are going to call it correctly.

Do it again, and 25 of them will be right again.

Do it a third time, and 12 or 13 of them wiil be right.

A fourth, and 6 will be right.

But when you get down to three, who will have been right FIVE TIMES IN A ROW, that does NOT mean that they are "experts" at calling coin tosses, because there is no such thing.

THAT is the kind of "expert" that Treadwell was.

It was an illusion, there was no skill there. He simply called the toss right thirteen years in a row.

Your analogy simply doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

He in all probability convinced her of the same idea, that is why he imo is responsible for her death, I realize that she has a choice, as we all have a choice but it is difficult to make a sound choice with bad information.

That's the only type of choice that counts.

If she wasn't capable of resisting him, why was she the only one who followed him?

Answer: because she was responsible for her own death, just as he was.

There are situtations in which humans are responsible for others. This wasn't one of them.

I believe in personal responsibility. This is a perfect example.

 

[Cosmoline]

Treadwell had no such skill, and that fact was readily apparent to everyone.

Everyone in this state, certainly. But without knowing more about the woman I'm not going to declare it was her own fault. Treadwell was an idiot, but he was also the leader of the expedition and as such bears the responsibility. For example, Scott was as big an idiot as Treadwell, and got a lot of people killed. Even though many knew he was an idiot, I still don't blame his crew for his stupidity and its consequences.

 

[Byron Quick]

Hard to say who was crazier. At least he died for what he believed.

I'm sorry, but the second statement is a failure of basic critical thinking. Treadwell believed that bears and humans could co-exist in extremely close contact completely without problems or conflicts. In no way did he die for this belief. Unless, of course, being killed and eaten does not fulfill your definition of problems or conflicts.

The manner of his death was a direct and specific contradiction of his beliefs.

 

[Jammer Six]

Everyone in this state, certainly. But without knowing more about the woman I'm not going to declare it was her own fault.

I will.

Your burden of proof goes the wrong way.

Following that logic, no one is personally responsible unless they "prove" their responsibility.

What test, in that world, would prove sufficient responsibility to own a weapon?

People bear responsibility for their decisions. The burden of proof needs to be that they don't, not that they do. The question shouldn't be why should she bear that responsibility, the question should be why should she not?

 

[JohnKSa]

If you go on such a climb, beyond your level of skill, (what divers would call a "trust me" dive) the price you pay is your own fault.

There's a difference between a climber taking on a climb beyond his skill level and a someone claiming to be an expert climber convincing a non-climber to come on a climb that's beyond the level of either person.

The girlfriend knew zip about bears and accepted Treadwell's claim of expertise. While her actions were ill-advised, she was following the advice of someone she believed to be an expert.

That is FAR different than someone making their own decision to bite off more than they can chew.

Think of it like this--Treadwell was flying without a license or training. His girlfriend was his passenger--and I believe that she honestly thought he knew what he was doing. She was wrong, but her mistake was trusting the wrong person. Treadwell was the one who put them both in danger by convincing her that what they were doing was safe.

 

[Jammer Six]

The girlfriend knew zip about bears and accepted Treadwell's claim of expertise. While her actions were ill-advised, she was following the advice of someone she believed to be an expert.

Nope.

One, that is the very definition of an abdication of personal responsibility.

It doesn't MATTER if you believe he's an expert- my suggestion is to know, my suggestion is to be right, because no one else is going to die in your place.

It's your responsibility, whether you choose to accept it or not.

Just as your safety on a city street is your responsibility, whether you recognize it or not.

No one else will pay the price. Not the police, not the ambulance driver, not the coroner.

It's your responsibility, and it doesn't matter who claims otherwise, or whose bill of goods you buy.

It's on you, just as it was on her. There is no difference, there is no exception for the Alaska.

Personal responsibility is personal responsibility, whether the opponent is a mugger, a rapist, or a grizzly.

Or do you believe there is an "expert" who will protect you?

Two, an irrelevant answer to a straw man argument.

She grew up outdoors. She was familiar with animals in general, and bears in particular.

She knew exactly what she was getting into, and that is made clear in the program.

I would suggest watching it first.

As I say, though, it doesn't MATTER what she knew, that argument is a red herring.

What matters is personal responsibility.

Who is responsible for your safety? Who do you delegate to? Who makes your choices, since, under some circumstances, you abdicate that responsibility?

Think of it like this--Treadwell was flying without a license or training. His girlfriend was his passenger--and I believe that she honestly thought he knew what he was doing

Again, for a new flavor, there is no parallel.

Someone flying a plane, whether licensed or unlicenced, needs to know how to get the plane in the air.

Treadwell was flipping coins, not flying a plane. No comparison.

 

[JohnKSa]

First of all, let me say that I am rabidly pro-responsibility. I think a good portion of the problems we see today are a result of people dodging responsibility for their own actions.

I am certainly not saying that the girlfriend was blameless. What she did was stupid. However, there is a difference between picking a bad expert and BEING a bad expert.

If we take your extreme position, then:

The patient is just as responsible as the doctor in the case of malpractice.
The passenger is just as responsible as the driver in a car accident.
The kool-aid drinkers were just as responsible as Jim Jones.
The passenger is just as responsible as the charter pilot.

Picking a bad expert can get you dead, and so it is important to take the responsibility of picking your experts carefully. But BEING an expert is a bigger responsibility.

I appreciate the BASIS of your argument, but I think you've carried it too far by equating CONSEQUENCES with RESPONSIBILITY.

Who do you delegate to? Who makes your choices, since, under some circumstances, you abdicate that responsibility?

Doctors, airline pilots, and bus drivers, to name a few, in specific. Mostly the same ones you do, in general.

Sure, if I pick a bad doctor, it may kill me. I have the responsibility to pick a good one and keep an eye on what he does. But since I don't have the expertise and training he does, at some point I must trust him, and when I do, he has the responsibility NOT to let me down.

If you set yourself up as an expert--Treadwell surely did--and then use your label "expert" to convince others to follow you, then you bear a level of responsibility for their welfare. That doesn't absolve the followers of all responsibility, but it certainly shifts or at least shares SOME of the followers' responsibility to the expert.