Showing Off Your CCW Unsafe?

[towboat_er]

Have to agree with ya beatledog.

 

[Sam1911]

I think there's something being missed between you two, BD and ET.

A gun in a holster CAN'T go off (barring absurdly unlikely forms of mechanical/material failures).

A gun you're handling, fooling with, loading/unloading, manipulating, show-n-telling, etc. CAN go off due to anything from willful acts to negligence, to fluke accident. Human touch = potential for mistakes. The likelihood of mistakes is lessened by training and experience and mindfulness. Lessened, not eliminated. So yeah, any time your hands are on it, you must be aware of the fact that it COULD discharge.

That's why we never touch, load, handle, unload, manipulate our firearms without taking the proper safety precautions. Layers of safety. Safe muzzle directions and/or backstops are a major -- THE major -- part of that, and aren't possible, generally, out in public places.


...

An old truism is that there are two types of gun owner, those that have had a negligent discharge and those that haven't ... YET. If I can get to the end of my life and still not YET had one, well more's the better! But they do happen and the only way to be safe is to always handle guns in a way that will give you a safety net if the unthinkable happens.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Showing Off Your CCW Unsafe?

When I have carried nobody knew but me and I felt no need "show off" my carry arm.

I might "show off" a gun to a fellow shooter at the gun club range if they express interst, or at an informal plinking/target practice afternoon with friends on the mountain or at home with family or trusted friends.

But to show off a gun, the magazine will be cleared, chamber empty, breech locked open (or revolver cylinder open) and all parties must treat the gun with the respect due a lethal weapon (no sweeping persons or pets with the muzzle, finger off the trigger, no dry firing).

My carry gun will be loaded and will stay securely holstered and concealed unless needed for self-defense or I am requested by an officer to secure the gun until the situation that prompted the request is settled.

 

[Tirod]

I think Massad Ayoob came up with the concept that carrying a concealed weapon was like having reproductive organs. You carefully picked the best opportunities to share what you have.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

CCW means concealed. I think it is totally stupid, and never a good idea in a public place.

Behind closed doors and with a cleared weapon, sure.

 

[taliv]

What really chaps my cheeks about this issue is laws that force people to handle guns when they don't need to. And also some matches/events with rules that result in unnecessary handling.

Eg states that require you to unholster before going into a prohibited place.

I'd wager these laws cause more gsw than they prevent

 

[taliv]

Closed doors are usually a false safety blanket. Rounds from pistols will go right through most walls. They're concealment not cover which means they only prevent you from knowin which direction is safe to point the gun. They don't protect people on the other side.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by taliv: Closed doors are usually a false safety blanket. Rounds from pistols will go right through most walls. They're concealment not cover which means they only prevent you from knowin which direction is safe to point the gun. They don't protect people on the other side.

That's something to always keep in mind, and to emphasize to others to whom it is not self-evident.

 

[Sav .250]

Not all who "carry" use common sense. Show and tell certainly has a time and a place but not at a place where people gather to worship. Plus you can bet there are some anti gun folks who attend. Not smart. IMO.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Closed doors are usually a false safety blanket. Rounds from pistols will go right through most walls. They're concealment not cover which means they only prevent you from knowin which direction is safe to point the gun. They don't protect people on the other side.

Yes, "behind closed doors" is not meant as a safety precaution, only a means to avoid public panic. Even if it was a hardened room, it would still be unsafe to handle a loaded weapon as an AD could cause a ricochet and still injure or kill someone in that room.

No gun should be handled for show and tell unless it is cleared and double checked by anyone handling the weapon. There is no reason to hand someone a loaded weapon IMO, unless you are in a combat situation of some kind, or perhaps a training class where an instructor is demonstrating technique. But even a demonstration by an instructor should be done with snap caps or dummy rounds.

Leave them holstered and concealed friends and neighbors.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Nonsense. If you cannot load and unload without risk of a discharge, sell your guns, now.

El Tejon is right unnecessary administrative handling ups your risk of an ND. He didn't say it makes it inevitable he said it makes the risk greater

 

[captbluemoon]

Many LE offices have a sand filled 50 gal drum, all loading and unloading takes place with gun pointed into it.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Closed doors are usually a false safety blanket. Rounds from pistols will go right through most walls. They're concealment not cover which means they only prevent you from knowin which direction is safe to point the gun. They don't protect people on the other side.

This is what I stress to people who carry at church. Knowing how to shoot isn't enough. You have to be aware in that situation of what is on the other side of walls. God forbid if we had a shooter, and his back was to a wall with a sunday school class on the other side, you can't shoot. Period.

As for the OP, we gun guys like to show off our new toys, but there is a time and place for that. The time and place is not just whipping it out, loaded in the parking lot and waving it around. My friends and I always show each other new guns and admire each others, but it is done correctly, in the correct setting and the gun is handled safely and is cleared before passing it off to someone else.

 

[beatledog7]

Handling raises the risk above zero, yes. Unnecessary handling mandated by legislation certainly causes risk that is not inherently present.

I agree that handling does not make having an ND inevitable and that the poster didn't say that it did. But the brash statement to which I responded is NOT the way we should be discussing gun handling. Sure, it can discharge during administrative handling--if you pull the trigger--so don't pull the trigger.

I stick by what I said.

 

[El Tejon]

Nonsense. If you cannot load and unload without risk of a discharge, sell your guns, now

No, not nonsense, reality.

Every time, every single time, you load or unload a firearm it can discharge, especially those with inertia firing pins--1911s, AR-15s, 870s. Your finger need not be on the trigger.

Slam fire, accidental discharge, inter alia; they do happen. Not that frequently but they happen.

This is why teachers such as Clint Smith teach that he expects the the weapon to discharge upon loading or unloading thus it prepares him to be muzzle aware and have a sand barrel or duct-taped wrapped stack of phone books handy.

 

[Nathan Detroit]

Nonsense. If you cannot load and unload without risk of a discharge, sell your guns, now.

We had a guy at our club who had the same opinion. There were no such things as accidental discharges, only negligent ones. Anyone who had an ND on club property should be removed from the club roster in his opinion. Two weeks later at a duty gun match he blew a hole in the range floor with his .45 when the gun discharged as he released the slide. No finger on the trigger or anything of that sort, the RO was standing right next to him at the time. His gun malfunctioned, and that was the only time in thousands of rounds. It does happen.

 

[Nathan Detroit]

One thing I tell new CCW students that we run through our club is that holstering and unholstering a firearm are very dangerous activities since those are the times that you are pointing a loaded firearm at your own body. If you have a discharge during either of those activities you are most likely going to seriously hurt yourself. Once the gun is holstered, leave it there until you need it.

That is one of the compromises we make between harming ourselves and being harmed by another.

 

[Apachedriver]

For what it's worth, equipment malfunctions tend to result from 2 factors: materiel failure and/or human failure.

Sometimes the failure is due to fabrication or material errors. More often, equipment fails due to incorrect or poor maintenance/inspection practices. If the first is true, he's not at fault. But if the second occurs, then it's still a negligent discharge, not accidental.

Ultimately, the only way to achieve zero risk is for an individual not to be present at all. Otherwise, you must continually practice risk mitigation. Handling will always increase the possibility of an incident but doesn't guarantee it's occurrence.

That being said, I prefer the lower risk that exists with leaving it holstered (once loaded) until I need it. I rather show it on the range or at home after using proper clearing procedures. If taking it in to the shop, it leaves my house already cleared.

 

[Bezoar]

most jurisdictions consider it a crime to remove a gun from holster and show people when your cpl ing it

 

[JohnKSa]

My opinion is that the holster is the best safety the handgun has. A modern handgun inside a proper holster cannot discharge. Fiddling with a loaded gun is poor form, and you should have told him so (tactfully).

Well said.

The question I ask when people ask me about this practice is: "Where is a safe direction when you're in public?" We all know that the first rule of gun safety is muzzle control. If you're not in a situation where there's obviously a safe direction to point the pistol, the pistol should remain in the holster.

Even if you do find yourself in a place with a safe direction, it's important to understand that handling a gun in public increases the chances of an unintentional discharge in public. Drawing a gun, clearing a gun, reloading a gun, reholstering a gun are all activities that have resulted in unintentional discharges. Even if the chances are small, why risk it when there's essentially no practical benefit to doing any of those things if you don't have to?

 

[Jim K]

When I was a LEO, we carried in "civilian" clothes but had strict orders to keep the weapon concealed and never draw it unless absolutely necessary. This was primarily to keep from frightening the citizenry, but also to avoid any possible misunderstandings with other LEOs who might mistake the situation and react in the wrong way.

Jim

 

[SC Shooter]

In many states, mine for one, the statutes refer to keeping your weapon concealed in public places. Standing in a church parking lot is a public place and in general, "showing off" your concealed weapon probably suggests your training didn't sink in.

 

[Warp]

You want to go someplace SAFE and draw and clear the weapon using proper procedures? Sure, share your guns with your pals.

In a public place with no safe backstop and/or known safe direction for muzzle control? No way.

This ^

Failing that, safely unholster, unload, and verify-unloaded in your car, then go play show and tell. Assuming that is okay where you are, of course.

 

[Warp]

In many states, mine for one, the statutes refer to keeping your weapon concealed in public places. Standing in a church parking lot is a public place and in general, "showing off" your concealed weapon probably suggests your training didn't sink in.

To be fair, in many states it is simply "carry", nothing concealed is required in any way.

My state (GA) and my last state (IN) as well as the states I travel through between them (KY and TN) are that way.

There are also plenty of states where open carry is legal withOUT a license, but concealed requires one.

Furthermore, many states do not require training. I have so far been licensed in three states and no training was required.

Food for thought.

 

[Strahley]

Absolutely not. The only time I would remove it from its holster in public (aside from inside of a vehicle, like if I'm going to a place where I'm not going to carry...or if I'm at a match where I have to draw from holstered and then fire) is if I'm going to use it for self defense. Hopefully that means never