Ultimate urban rifle?

[MicroBalrog]

DISCLAIMER: THE AUTHOR OF THIS HATES AR-15'S

However, I was about thinking of the perfect urban rifle. Givens:

1.When I move to the US, I will buy a gun.
2. " " " " " " live in a large city.

What are the needs of the middle-class urban gunman?

You can't have lots of guns when living in the city, so I suppose I'll limit myself to a handgun and a longarm. The hangun is a separate issue, for the longarm, several requirements are necessary:

1.Must be a rifle (to fit for both SHTF and normal self-defense options). There was a riot in my town back in 2001, I don't want to be around when it hits.

1a.Must take high-capacity magazines.

2.Must be able to take large variety of accessories (because it's one rifle only, it must be customizable.

3.Must be of intermediate cartridge (minimize overpenetration, but have moderate stopping power).

4.Must be of a military action (easier to use)

5.Must be relatively accurate.

6.Accuracy is less of an issue than in a military rifle, as sand is not a problem in cities.

The choice?

An M4 variant, with lots of accessories, also enhanced by the fact that back when I was an armourer I learned to maintain, fix, and customize both AK's and AR's.

 

[MrPink]

Well if you hate AR-15s, don't buy something you hate. I happen to like them.

But consider an AK variant or a Galil. The AKs can be had cheaper, a Galil will run at preban prices.

 

[Tomac]

My choice is the 5.45 AK w/PK-AS red dot/black dot CQB sight.

Tomac

 

[DMK]

5.Must be relatively accurate.

6.Accuracy is less of an issue than in a military rifle, as sand is not a problem in cities.

For #6, did you mean to say "Reliability is less of an issue than in a military rifle, as sand is not a problem in cities" ?

 

[MicroBalrog]

You're correct. Sorry.

 

[DMK]

In that case, I'd say a good quality AR such as a Bushmaster or Colt would fit the bill or one of the higher quality AK varients such as a Vepr since you don't favor the AR.

Other than requirement 1a, a nice .357 lever might be a good option with good marks for being more PC than the dreaded "Assault Weapons".

 

[MicroBalrog]

I'm not the PC type.

 

[roscoe]

I am getting a Saiga in .223 for that very purpose. They come highly rated and are pretty inexpensive. It is an AK action, so sand is no issue - I can just leave it in the bottom of the cat-box until the blue helmets show up.

 

[goon]

Arsenal SA-M7.
Get one with the scope rail and you can mount whatever you want on it.
It fits your requirements.

 

[Mulliga]

I'm not the PC type.

May not have a choice if you live in California or another state with its own AWB.

A lever-action carbine, in .30-30 or a pistol caliber, is well-suited for most urban SHTF scenarios - big bang, pretty fast operation (along with a potentially intimidating sound when you cycle the action, much like a pump), and definitely more PC if order ever returns and the families of the "victims" of your rifle want "compensation."

Why do you hate AR-15s? Under 100-150 yards, I'd want nothing else than a Bushmaster M4gery or carbine. Accurate as all hell, common ammo, common accessories, common parts, little overpenetration with hollowpoints, etc. As you said, there's no powdery sand in the cities, so few reliability problems, if any.

Of course, I personally have a SAR-1, because it's much cheaper . I don't quite trust it yet (need to put in new FCG before I do). A nicer AK variant would do well in urban SHTF, but it'll penetrate like crazy.

 

[MicroBalrog]

Mulliga: That's what I wrote in the first post, if you noticed - the AR might not be reliable enough for a military rifle, but it's near perfect for a civilian geek like me.

And the California AWB is gonna be dead by the time I emigrate.

 

[Deep Blue]

And the California AWB is gonna be dead by the time I emigrate.

Don't bet on it.

The Clinton AWB might die this year, but I wouldn't bet on the Kali ban going away any time soon. Might be best to avoid that state.

 

[dave3006]

Here is my advice, don't move to California. You will make friends. Maybe get married and then you will be stuck in this communist hell hole.

My opinion: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN URBAN CARBINE!

In an urban area with typical middleclass homes, even .223 will easily penetrate a typical house and possibly kill your neighbors 6 year old daughter. Mr. Murphy says that you have a good chance of missing and contrary to popular myth, .223 penetrates very well.

I have seen the Olympic Arms site (Gee I wonder if they are trying to sell rifles?). I have seen the report from the Arizona sherriffs. BUT, I have done my own tests and witnessed with my own two eyes how much Federal American Eagle penetrates a house with both FMJ and HP at 25 yds.

DO NOT TRUST ANYONES TESTS ON SOMETHING SO EASY TO TEST YOURSELF. The urban myth is not true.

Dave

P.S. Please do not post unless you have personally done similar tests and witnessed the results with your own two eyes. Your opinions are worthless and irrelevent unless you have done so.

 

[MicroBalrog]

"Middle-class apartment buildings" are nearer to reality were I live or plan to live.

 

[El Tejon]

Micro, sounds like you want a CKC.

Whatever you get, Dave's right about penetration. Do not trust hype in the gun rags or Errornet or what cops carry.

From my LE daze, I saw that even lowly pistol rounds zip though apartments like a sharp knife at a certain ceremony.

Can't have many guns in the city??? City boy myself. What city is that?

 

[JShirley]

What are the needs of the middle-class urban gunman?

A decent suit. The fashion police are hell.

contrary to popular myth, .223 penetrates very well.

In what? Using which round? 50 grain HP penetrated much less in water than defensive hollowpoints from my KT 9mm...

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN URBAN CARBINE! In an urban area with typical middleclass homes, even .223 will easily penetrate a typical house and possibly kill your neighbors 6 year old daughter. Mr. Murphy says that you have a good chance of missing and contrary to popular myth, .223 penetrates very well.

Very true. All carbines are "urban carbines", since one should ALWAYS reach for a longarm for protective use, if one has the luxury.

"Even .223?" Being good friends with Mr. Murphy, I can tell you that a much sturdier-for-speed round over twice as heavy traveling at much slower speeds will usually penetrate more- and you're much more likely to miss with a sidearm with Mr. Murphy sitting on your shoulder.

I do agree that it's silly to take someone else's word for something that is easy to test for yourself.

John

 

[NEtracker]

Depending on housing & the neighbors, a nice shotgun may prove to be best, along with a 1911 or something. Not that I don't like AR's, AK's myself..
Oh, and choose the state & city carefully! Re: firearms laws, CA is bad, NYC (the city itself), MA is a bit restrictive, and the list goes on..... Cities sometimes have their own laws that overide the state law, and states have laws that overide Federal law (in the case of CA & MA).

 

[dave3006]

I used the 55gr. American Eagle FMJ. We also tested 165gr .40 cal FMJ PMC out of my Glock 22. It did not penetrate as much as the .223. I used some Federal F127 00 buck. It penetrated the least.

This was a BIG lesson to me, when possible, to test things for myself. Especially the things that we all hold to be "universally true".

The original poster is going to live in an apartment. He needs a shotgun, not a carbine for serious situations. Save the carbine for when the Blue Helmets arrive to pacify the region at the request of future President Kerry.

 

[Kurt]

Exactly right.

If times are such that we need to get the rifles out, let somebody else worry about my possible over penetration (in the streets).

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Sounds like you're the right fit for an AK clone.

 

[ReadyontheRight]

Along with the AK --

How about a Marlin 336 or Winchester 94 to go along with it? More PC and useful if you ever hunt or if you need to arm a neighbor when SHTF.

And -- a nice pump shotgun? For close quarters. Remington 870 Wingmaster perhaps.

 

[Chip Dixon]

Marlin 336; 1894 45/70

The marlin 30/30 336 and 45/70 1894 lever action rifles are such a great value that everyone should own one of each, IMHO. Also get a 12 gauge (Mossberg 590, perhaps) pump action shotgun, and get a double pistol grip set for it.

Then I'd get a M14, and a M1, too.

With that you should be pretty well armed -- and be able to shoot most common rifle calibers, (30/30, 45/70, .308, .30-06) if you happen to need to loot ammo. With wood stocks, all those guns pass the "PC" test, and are elegant at the same time.. except for the mossberg I guess that could fulfill your "evil assault weapon" look fetish.

There's no reason not to have lots of guns in a city. Relying on a single weapon is setting yourself up for trouble in a SHTF situation.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Micro,

Getting a rifle you hate is silly. If you don't like it your less likely to practice with it, and thereby less likely to become proficient with it.

A .357 Magnum lever action can be a very formidable weapon out to 100 yards or so. Put a peep sight on it along with a fiber optic front sight, and target acquisition is very fast. Plus, it can share ammo with you a nice, un-PC .357 Magnum handgun.

My current urban carbine is a Mini-14. The one mod I've made is to replace the awful fractory front sight with one from Eagle, which gives me an HK-style sight picture plus a flash hider. I have a good supply of preban PMI magazines. This rifle is utterly reliable.

However, once I verify that it functions with its new fire control group, and I sight it in with its new PK-01V red dot, this converted Saiga will take over as my primary SHTF rifle:

 

[MicroBalrog]

Can't have many guns in the city??? City boy myself. What city is that?

Storing them is iffy (PLACE! PLACE! PLACE!)

Getting a rifle you hate is silly

Let's put it this way: I really enjoyed the little shooting I've done in the Army (30 rounds total) with M-16s. I can put 5 out of 5 rounds in a head-and-shoulders target at 50 meters. However, if I were the Chief Procurement Officer, it would not be my choice for standard issue rifle.

 

[fix]

MB, you're dancing around the issue. The shorty ARs are the ultimate "urban rifle". Don't fall into the "anything but an AR" trap. Accept the thing for what it is and embrace it. Sorry, but a 45-70 lever gun instead of an AR? Yikes. AK? Reasonable substitute. 30-30 lever? Only if PC is your number one priority. 357 lever? Please.

Hey, I don't particularly care for revolvers. That doesn't stop me from packing the 681 in my truck every day. Use the right tool for the job.