Ultimate urban rifle?
- Thread starter MicroBalrog
- Start date
- Status
I do love all of this instant dismissal of the lever action carbines in this thread. My home defense weapons are a 1911 and a shotgun. My SHTF weapons are a .357 Mag Ruger revolver and a soon to be acquired Marlin .357 Cowboy.
I have been playing with my cousin's tricked out Marlin carbine of late. His has 10+1 .357 capacity. Shoot one--load one capability. He can mount a red dot on it. The rifle is dead-on out to about 150m and the zippier loads will still kill in a drop dead fashion out there. Recent urban combat in Iraq rarely featured ranges in excess of 100 meters.
Three other characteristics recommend a lever carbine as a SHTF rifle: 1) It always has its magazine with it. Yes the tube could be dented or bent, but that is about as likely as a black rifleman losing all of his magazines right? 2) It is handy. Levers are well balanced and there is no temptation to hang flash hiders or bayonets or other strangeness off of one. 3) It is thin. A lever, particularly the shorter barrel ones, are easily hidden in all manner of places. Under a coat, under a truck bench, in a golf bag, the possibilities of keeping one at the ready because there isn't a bannana mag hanging off of it makes it easier to tote a lever out of sight from the curious. Also, as mentioned, if one has the desire and the cash, a lever rifle of any caliber can be converted into something that can be carried broken down in an attache case or backpack if one needs it concealed.
Can I take on dozens of people at a time with a lever and a revo? Nah, but my plan is to avoid contact when possible. If I can't I'll take my chances on my choices.
I have been playing with my cousin's tricked out Marlin carbine of late. His has 10+1 .357 capacity. Shoot one--load one capability. He can mount a red dot on it. The rifle is dead-on out to about 150m and the zippier loads will still kill in a drop dead fashion out there. Recent urban combat in Iraq rarely featured ranges in excess of 100 meters.
Three other characteristics recommend a lever carbine as a SHTF rifle: 1) It always has its magazine with it. Yes the tube could be dented or bent, but that is about as likely as a black rifleman losing all of his magazines right? 2) It is handy. Levers are well balanced and there is no temptation to hang flash hiders or bayonets or other strangeness off of one. 3) It is thin. A lever, particularly the shorter barrel ones, are easily hidden in all manner of places. Under a coat, under a truck bench, in a golf bag, the possibilities of keeping one at the ready because there isn't a bannana mag hanging off of it makes it easier to tote a lever out of sight from the curious. Also, as mentioned, if one has the desire and the cash, a lever rifle of any caliber can be converted into something that can be carried broken down in an attache case or backpack if one needs it concealed.
Can I take on dozens of people at a time with a lever and a revo? Nah, but my plan is to avoid contact when possible. If I can't I'll take my chances on my choices.
iamkris
Member
Like Boats, I'd feel totally comfortable and well armed with my Rossi 92 in 45 Colt.
Likewise, my Mossy 500 pump with a mix of #1 buckshot and slugs in the sidesaddle.
Likewise my STG58...heck the thing is so long I could push the guy over with the end of the muzzle break.
Then again, an M4-gery seems like it would be the bees knees...
Likewise, my Mossy 500 pump with a mix of #1 buckshot and slugs in the sidesaddle.
Likewise my STG58...heck the thing is so long I could push the guy over with the end of the muzzle break.
Then again, an M4-gery seems like it would be the bees knees...
I'd be perfectly content with any decent, reliable centerfire rifle. I would prefer shorter barrels, and would choose my ammunition carefully.
Everything I've heard about the Tec-9's indicates they work fairly consistently...with FMJ. Since 9mm full metal jacket rounds are close to the last thing one wants to use in friendly territory (notoriously poor stoppers, and consistent overpenetration), I see no reason for a Tec-9 in my inventory, especially when so many quality 9mm carbines can be had for similar prices.
John
Everything I've heard about the Tec-9's indicates they work fairly consistently...with FMJ. Since 9mm full metal jacket rounds are close to the last thing one wants to use in friendly territory (notoriously poor stoppers, and consistent overpenetration), I see no reason for a Tec-9 in my inventory, especially when so many quality 9mm carbines can be had for similar prices.
John
Based on what I've seen most rifle using urban geurillas are packing bb guns.
That's right.
High capacity unregistered BB guns.
Hell on the windows of my garage...
That's right.
High capacity unregistered BB guns.
Hell on the windows of my garage...
Kobun
Member
Micro, these are what I keep around:
75gr Hornady HPBT is what I feed it for serious use.
0-250+ meters. Same point of aim.
75gr Hornady HPBT is what I feed it for serious use.
0-250+ meters. Same point of aim.
iamkris
Member
All right, Kobun, I say we vote you off the board if you're going to tease us with pics like that...uh, actually, send me all your arms and then we'll vote you off the board.
Here's my urban arsenal...that is Tombstone, circa 1898
Range?
The knife, 7 inches
The street howitzer, 7 feet
The pistols, 7 yards
The lever gun, 70 yards
The Sharps, 700...
Here's my urban arsenal...that is Tombstone, circa 1898
Range?
The knife, 7 inches
The street howitzer, 7 feet
The pistols, 7 yards
The lever gun, 70 yards
The Sharps, 700...
I'd go the AR route.
The .223 HP (note I said HP NOT FMJ) has been proven to penetrate less and have a better record of "one shot stops" than 9mm ball. That combined with the fact you're familiar with the platform makes it easier. This is one of the reasons many PD's are switching to AR's for their entry teams over the MP5's. The .223 HP's hit hard and put the target down (provided there's good shot placement....if you miss the HP will not penetrate many layers of sheetrock) and are easy to shoot. This is also a reason some PD's are phasing in the AR to replace some of the shotguns. If you're not a regular shooter, qualifying on a 12ga is a pretty ugly thing.
Rich
The .223 HP (note I said HP NOT FMJ) has been proven to penetrate less and have a better record of "one shot stops" than 9mm ball. That combined with the fact you're familiar with the platform makes it easier. This is one of the reasons many PD's are switching to AR's for their entry teams over the MP5's. The .223 HP's hit hard and put the target down (provided there's good shot placement....if you miss the HP will not penetrate many layers of sheetrock) and are easy to shoot. This is also a reason some PD's are phasing in the AR to replace some of the shotguns. If you're not a regular shooter, qualifying on a 12ga is a pretty ugly thing.
Rich
Kobun
Member
Kris,
I guess I won't show you the inside of my safe then.
Come to think of it. I don't have a updated group picture yet. Hmmm...
Guess I could mount some optics on the 551s...
I guess I won't show you the inside of my safe then.
Come to think of it. I don't have a updated group picture yet. Hmmm...
Guess I could mount some optics on the 551s...
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Depends on what load you are using. .223 40-gr JHP is one of the LEAST penetrating of all defensive rounds (get yourself a 9mm/115JHP and a .223/40JHP and shoot a few layers of sheetrock, spaced apart like they would be in a real wall. The .223 will begin going to pieces after it hits the first wallboard, and may penetrate the second but will probably be mostly fragments on the other side. The 9mm holds together in hard cover a lot better.
Hornady TAP 55-grainers in .223 are specifically designed to limit penetration in building materials, yes?
If your building is so lightly constructed that you have to worry about .223/40's, you also have to worry very much about handgun calibers (or .22LR, for that matter, which penetrates more than you think.)
Yup.
Cheap 50-grain Fed Eagle HP .223 penetrated much less than defensive 9mm. Definitely low-pen.
Kobun, you've already been chastised for being, just, wrong, so I won't belabor the point. That angle makes your Sig look like it's about .50!
John
Cheap 50-grain Fed Eagle HP .223 penetrated much less than defensive 9mm. Definitely low-pen.
Kobun, you've already been chastised for being, just, wrong, so I won't belabor the point. That angle makes your Sig look like it's about .50!
John
"id rather have a good knife at typical home defense ranges" !!!!!!!!
Come on, you cant be serious, you would rather go at a guy witha a knife than a calico and high quality .22 ammo(stingers, or hydrashoks)?? im sorry, but i have to question that. Im not dismissing it, but i think i would feel a LOT more comforted with a .22 that i know works reliably and has 100 rounds in the mag, than a knife. I don't see how ANY knife could take the place of EVEN a .22, let alone a hi'cap that is reliable.
as i have read on this board and tfl, among others is
Rule #1: HAVE A GUN.
thats like bringing a horse to a drag race.
Come on, you cant be serious, you would rather go at a guy witha a knife than a calico and high quality .22 ammo(stingers, or hydrashoks)?? im sorry, but i have to question that. Im not dismissing it, but i think i would feel a LOT more comforted with a .22 that i know works reliably and has 100 rounds in the mag, than a knife. I don't see how ANY knife could take the place of EVEN a .22, let alone a hi'cap that is reliable.
as i have read on this board and tfl, among others is
Rule #1: HAVE A GUN.
thats like bringing a horse to a drag race.
fix
Member
In extreme close quarters, that .22 would be a good club but that's about it. Remember the 21 foot rule. Under 21 feet and you're probably looking at an in your face confrontation. So yes, facing an unarmed opponent I'd rather have a knife. In reality though, that isn't going to happen because my adversary will be facing the aforementioned Hornady TAP 55 grainers...or Federal 125gr 357 Mag JHP...or 230gr 45 Hydrashoks...or 00 buckshot...etc...etc. The one thing they will not face is a 22. While he may still manage to close that 21 foot gap, he will be well on his way to the other side.
Kobun
Member
The following post may be a bit disturbing to our American members.
Please scroll past if you feel like voting me off the board .
Please scroll past if you feel like voting me off the board .
Kobun
Member
If you don't mind me asking, how much did those Sigs set you back?
They look way too expensive for my budget, but you can always dream!
for urban use, I would reccomend something that doesn't have mags that can wear out and malf.
Garand, Lever/bolt actions?
Revolvers?
optimally, of course, I would go with a good .223 with a 30rd mag.
They look way too expensive for my budget, but you can always dream!
for urban use, I would reccomend something that doesn't have mags that can wear out and malf.
Garand, Lever/bolt actions?
Revolvers?
optimally, of course, I would go with a good .223 with a 30rd mag.
1. We are serious.
2. We know YOU don't see it...notice you're the one advocating .22 for defense. I've seen what a .22 does. I've seen what my knives do. At close range, why YES, I WOULD rather have one of my knives that will cleanly chop a 2" thick branch with one blow than a .22. I know of cases where bears have been killed with one blow of knives similar to mine.
3. I've tried very hard to be kind to you in this thread. The great divide, in the main, is indeed between having and not having a firearm- but this comes with one proviso: DISTANCE. At close range, a large knife is indeed more effective than a .22. If you don't understand this, TRAIN MORE.
4. Your comfort is your comfort, but be sure you're willing to actually receive the answers you get, otherwise, why ask the questions? You can get the answers you want while looking in the mirror, if you just need to hear that you're right.
John
No, it's really just that we want the freedom he's diplaying. It's the right to own that particular plastic and metal monstrosity that we crave, whether we actually want that Sig or not.
(Though I'd love to have a 10" bl Sig in 9x23mm!)
John
(Though I'd love to have a 10" bl Sig in 9x23mm!)
John
JShirley,
i understand where you are coming from, but at what point does urban rifle become "less than 21 feet, only" rifle?
I have much less training than you, quite obviously, you know quite a bit more than me on that. But just like you said, it is distance. EVEN when someone says urban, why does that mean pistol range or less? I live in thick woods, and that has less useable range to it than an "urban" environment, so why would i want to limit myself to a weapon of 21 feet or less? what if the guy is 22 feet away and I have just enough time to stop him with my (too embarrassed to be seen with, because its just not tactical!!).22.
Train more? to the average guy around here, training means running more than 1 box of ammo through your pistol in a week. Not many people get enough GUN training, let alone advanced hand to hand combat training, or knife fighting training.
And if your magic knife is so great, i wonder why i have heard stories of bears also falling to .22's?
So, basically, you are saying, you think your knife is superior because WITHIN 20 feet, its superior? im still failing to see the connection with "urban", and "within 21 feet". It would be one thing to say, the .22 is an inferior choice to a more powerful round, but are trying to convince me it is worse than a knife? I dont work at the circus, and i wouldnt even want someone who DID to have to rely on knives past 5 feet, let alone the "magical" 21 feet when someone who is shot fatally could still attack you.
And by the way, 2 other people spoke up as soon as i mentioned a .22, thinking it was obviously a good idea. Im sorry i messed up your super-tactical, mall ninja plans. I just happen to think that a 70 year old with arthritis, or a 10 year old kid even, could happen to pick up a .22 a lot easier than ADVANCED KNIFE FIGHTING............
So im sorry master, i forgot, i was angering you with a different point of view. i hope you can be so "kind" next time...........
i understand where you are coming from, but at what point does urban rifle become "less than 21 feet, only" rifle?
I have much less training than you, quite obviously, you know quite a bit more than me on that. But just like you said, it is distance. EVEN when someone says urban, why does that mean pistol range or less? I live in thick woods, and that has less useable range to it than an "urban" environment, so why would i want to limit myself to a weapon of 21 feet or less? what if the guy is 22 feet away and I have just enough time to stop him with my (too embarrassed to be seen with, because its just not tactical!!).22.
Train more? to the average guy around here, training means running more than 1 box of ammo through your pistol in a week. Not many people get enough GUN training, let alone advanced hand to hand combat training, or knife fighting training.
And if your magic knife is so great, i wonder why i have heard stories of bears also falling to .22's?
So, basically, you are saying, you think your knife is superior because WITHIN 20 feet, its superior? im still failing to see the connection with "urban", and "within 21 feet". It would be one thing to say, the .22 is an inferior choice to a more powerful round, but are trying to convince me it is worse than a knife? I dont work at the circus, and i wouldnt even want someone who DID to have to rely on knives past 5 feet, let alone the "magical" 21 feet when someone who is shot fatally could still attack you.
And by the way, 2 other people spoke up as soon as i mentioned a .22, thinking it was obviously a good idea. Im sorry i messed up your super-tactical, mall ninja plans. I just happen to think that a 70 year old with arthritis, or a 10 year old kid even, could happen to pick up a .22 a lot easier than ADVANCED KNIFE FIGHTING............
So im sorry master, i forgot, i was angering you with a different point of view. i hope you can be so "kind" next time...........
Beetle Bailey
Member
MicroBalrog You don't need to limit yourself to only one long gun. You can have a shottie for indoor use and your M4 or whatever for outdoor use . That way you don't have to compromise as much.
Kobun Since you are torturing us anyways, what else is in your safe?
25/20 If someone who means to do you harm is already inside your house, and even in the same room as you, and your choice is to grab a .22lr or grab the phone, then obviously you grab the .22lr. And, I'll admit that I'm a big sissy and would not want to be shot, not even once, by a .22lr. But, if we are talking indoors, in an average sized urban home, the last gun I will be reaching for is a .22lr. The reason is that I don't trust that even multiple hits with a .22lr is going to mean that someone with a big knife is going to just fall down and die without taking me with him. Knives can do a lot of damage real fast. Remember that in self-defence, you are "shooting to live." That doesn't mean killing the other guy so much as it means stopping him ASAP. .22lr can kill in seconds, minutes, hours, or even days. I personally don't like those odds. What if instead of spending those last few moments of his life confessing his sins, he decides to use it cutting me up? I'd rather hit him with something, anything centerfire.
. That way you don't have to compromise as much.Kobun Since you are torturing us anyways, what else is in your safe?
25/20 If someone who means to do you harm is already inside your house, and even in the same room as you, and your choice is to grab a .22lr or grab the phone, then obviously you grab the .22lr. And, I'll admit that I'm a big sissy and would not want to be shot, not even once, by a .22lr. But, if we are talking indoors, in an average sized urban home, the last gun I will be reaching for is a .22lr. The reason is that I don't trust that even multiple hits with a .22lr is going to mean that someone with a big knife is going to just fall down and die without taking me with him. Knives can do a lot of damage real fast. Remember that in self-defence, you are "shooting to live." That doesn't mean killing the other guy so much as it means stopping him ASAP. .22lr can kill in seconds, minutes, hours, or even days. I personally don't like those odds. What if instead of spending those last few moments of his life confessing his sins, he decides to use it cutting me up? I'd rather hit him with something, anything centerfire.
Rob96
Member
Posted by Perfessr
Sounds just like living up here in Allentown.
Sounds just like living up here in Allentown.
25/20,
I thought you were doing a fairly good job of addressing my objections from your viewpoint until you got silly. "Mall ninja"? No need for that. I don't even own an H&R!
Different viewpoints are fine, especially if you can back them up with experience and knowledge.
Urban usually equates to short range. At short range, a large knife is indeed superior to a .22- which means you need more gun if you don't plan on using a large knife.
John
I thought you were doing a fairly good job of addressing my objections from your viewpoint until you got silly. "Mall ninja"? No need for that. I don't even own an H&R!
Different viewpoints are fine, especially if you can back them up with experience and knowledge.
Urban usually equates to short range. At short range, a large knife is indeed superior to a .22- which means you need more gun if you don't plan on using a large knife.
John
Kobun
Member
N3rday,
I won't tell you what I pay for them. Trade secret.
I do however sell them for about $2200 (+ 24% sales tax) So one will cost about $2700 here in Norway.
Greg Bell,
I still don't hate you.
Beetle Bailey,
which safe are you asking about?
Beetle is right Micro. Don't get just one gun.
If you can't afford several right away, get the one you WANT the most first.
I won't tell you what I pay for them. Trade secret.
I do however sell them for about $2200 (+ 24% sales tax) So one will cost about $2700 here in Norway.
Greg Bell,
I still don't hate you.
Beetle Bailey,
which safe are you asking about?
Beetle is right Micro. Don't get just one gun.
If you can't afford several right away, get the one you WANT the most first.
- Status
