Northwest Cajun
Member
What about the old and reliable M1 Carbine? Light ,handy and comes with 30 round magazines. The round is adiquate for "urban" use. ( what ever that is) 
Cajun
Cajun
Ultimate urban rifle?
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DrDremel
Member
An AK will take care of most problems. I prefer a Wild West Copilot in .44 magnum. Takes down to 18 inches so it can be transported without freaking out the people around you, has a range of 100-150 yards, and does not lable you as a militant if you have to pull it out.
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
What works for me in "beautiful" downtown Lancaster, PA is a brace of S&W revolvers and a Marlin 1894c lever gun. My Model 13 and 586 are very good guns at contact ranges and the Lever gun pushes the envelope out to 150 yds. If I walked out my door with an AR my neighbors would freak, that does not mean I do not want one, but if I walked out with my 1894 there would not be as much of a clamor. Do I have problems in my "hood" sure, dope deals across the street, Women fighting over dumb adultrous men and all, shooting at the Mini mart and within the next couple of blocks across the street.
hey man,
i dunno if you should take this seriously, since i have no experience with them at all, but you might think about a calico .22 with a folding stock. i saw one at the gun show last weekend and it looked absolutely sweet, and if it ran half as good as it looked, then thats what i'd use!
you can practice all day for cheap, and i dont think there are ANY penetration issues with .22, but you could use quick shoks and stingers in it if you needed.
the only thing i would get with it is a couple spare mags and a BUNCH of spare parts, i dont think they make them any more.
Ok, flame suit on, everyone tell me why im an idiot!
i dunno if you should take this seriously, since i have no experience with them at all, but you might think about a calico .22 with a folding stock. i saw one at the gun show last weekend and it looked absolutely sweet, and if it ran half as good as it looked, then thats what i'd use!
you can practice all day for cheap, and i dont think there are ANY penetration issues with .22, but you could use quick shoks and stingers in it if you needed.
the only thing i would get with it is a couple spare mags and a BUNCH of spare parts, i dont think they make them any more.
Ok, flame suit on, everyone tell me why im an idiot!
Why? Wouldn't it be better to tell you why plan B is better than plan A (in our opinion)?
I actually think a high-cap .22 rifle is a better "SHTF" than home defense rifle. In resistance or survival scenarios, my motivation is to be able to put a hole into as many targets as possible. I really don't care if they implode just by the shock wave of my passing .217 THUNDERcat.
For home defense, on the other hand, you want something that will quickly incapacitate attackers at close range. High capacity is probably not as important as the ability to hit your adversary(s) hard. .22 will not be optimal in this role, I feel.
John
i know that on a single round basis, that 22 lr is horrible, but seeing as to how easy they are to control, couldnt you put multiple hits into someone very quickly? if i hit a guy with 3 22's in the head/upper chest area, i think that would do the trick.
BerettaNut92
Member
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A cell phone...attached to your friends in an AC-130 Gunship
ploooooey.....plooooey...ploooooooey......ploooooooey.....
ploooooey.....plooooey...ploooooooey......ploooooooey.....
marklbucla
Member
I don't think anyone's said the Ruger PC9 or PC40 yet. Great little carbines; in fact, my new Ruger PC9 is my favorite out of all the guns I have ever shot.
They take standard Ruger P series mags and are chambered in 9mm Luger and .40 S&W.
The only thing is that they kick much harder than one would think it should given the size of the cartridge and the bulk of the gun.
They take standard Ruger P series mags and are chambered in 9mm Luger and .40 S&W.
The only thing is that they kick much harder than one would think it should given the size of the cartridge and the bulk of the gun.
Baba Louie
Member
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2002
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- 3,831
I'd agree with NW Cajun and Audie Murphy on the M1 Carbine for the city jungle.
Failing that, I'm waiting and watching the Beretta Cx4 Storm (come on .45 acp), reading everyones post about theirs; the good, the bad and the ugly.
Failing that, I'm waiting and watching the Beretta Cx4 Storm (come on .45 acp), reading everyones post about theirs; the good, the bad and the ugly.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
I second the calico. that or an ameerican 180 in full auto guise would be just the ticket.
If you have to compromise and go with something more PC, maybe an SKS?
I have shot my brother's quite a bit and I have to say that I would take it and feel as well armed as a guy with an AK or AR-15. I have found that it is more accurate than my AK, or at least easier to shoot. It does only hold 10 rounds, but reloading with strippers makes that a small issue.
Since you can get your hands on a Yugo SKS for a little over $100 and ammo is dirt cheap, it might be a good one to get while you are working on getting your dream SHTF gun.
All the other ideas are good too, but I would try to stick with a 9mm, 5.56 or 7.62x39 because they are cheaper to buy ammo for, and therefore, cheaper to practice with.
Just my $.02.
I have shot my brother's quite a bit and I have to say that I would take it and feel as well armed as a guy with an AK or AR-15. I have found that it is more accurate than my AK, or at least easier to shoot. It does only hold 10 rounds, but reloading with strippers makes that a small issue.
Since you can get your hands on a Yugo SKS for a little over $100 and ammo is dirt cheap, it might be a good one to get while you are working on getting your dream SHTF gun.
All the other ideas are good too, but I would try to stick with a 9mm, 5.56 or 7.62x39 because they are cheaper to buy ammo for, and therefore, cheaper to practice with.
Just my $.02.
25/20,
What if you're being rushed, or the BG has a firearm as well? In your domicile, you likely have little extra room, and less margin for error. Unless you're using a centerfire rifle, or perhaps a shotgun, the chances of Mr. Rob, Rape, and Murder stopping all aggressive action immediately with one round are very low.
Even with relatively high-powered rifles, deer weighing no more than 100 lbs usually run at least a little way before dropping. Imagine using less gun, under stress, on a dangerous foe.
Just a thought.
John
What if you're being rushed, or the BG has a firearm as well? In your domicile, you likely have little extra room, and less margin for error. Unless you're using a centerfire rifle, or perhaps a shotgun, the chances of Mr. Rob, Rape, and Murder stopping all aggressive action immediately with one round are very low.
Even with relatively high-powered rifles, deer weighing no more than 100 lbs usually run at least a little way before dropping. Imagine using less gun, under stress, on a dangerous foe.
Just a thought.
John
yes, but deer are not attacking you when they are being shot, are they? just like someone said about .25 mouse guns in the other forum, having a gun period is going to help, and if there are multiple adversaries, guess what, if you cant shoot a .22 that fast, then thats your problem for not practicing enough.
Im sorry, i just dont see how a Fal or ar-15 variant(i own an fal too, btw) would be that much better, because seriously, even the .223 kicks WAY more than a .22. I would rather be able to dump a couple rounds into each guy fast, because wounding everyone is better than killing a couple(at least from my very inexperienced point of view?) i would rather have ten guys shot in the neck or the guts coming at me than 2 dead and 8 healthy guys attacking me.
AND, if the other guy has a gun, or the other GUYS have a gun, id rather keep them down for a little while and run, then try and stick it out with a full sized rifle.Like i said, i still dont see an advantage to this, being shot in the head with a .22 and dying is the same as being shot with a .308, .223, or .30 russian short round. dead is dead, and id rather be able to practice for cheap and have more than 30 rounds on tap
Im sorry, i just dont see how a Fal or ar-15 variant(i own an fal too, btw) would be that much better, because seriously, even the .223 kicks WAY more than a .22. I would rather be able to dump a couple rounds into each guy fast, because wounding everyone is better than killing a couple(at least from my very inexperienced point of view?) i would rather have ten guys shot in the neck or the guts coming at me than 2 dead and 8 healthy guys attacking me.
AND, if the other guy has a gun, or the other GUYS have a gun, id rather keep them down for a little while and run, then try and stick it out with a full sized rifle.Like i said, i still dont see an advantage to this, being shot in the head with a .22 and dying is the same as being shot with a .308, .223, or .30 russian short round. dead is dead, and id rather be able to practice for cheap and have more than 30 rounds on tap
artherd
member
I'm convinced that when properly set-up and cared for (ie, not GI issue guns that have gone through 5 owners already and are litterally falling apart.) the AR is one of the best weapons platforms on the face of the earth.
It is as reliable as any other millitary-issue long-arm (let's face it, none are perfect, and soldiers would bitch if you gave them a Golden Gun, M14, M1Garand, etc. all had an 'm16' like stigma.)
It's ergonomics (which lead to fast, on-target shots, which can save your life.) are second to none in my opinion.
And it's *accurate*. When properly set up and still 'combat' worthy, it seems to be nearly bolt-gun accurate. And when using a Wilde chamber a little tighter and set up for competition with a heavy barrel, it kicks many bolt guns butt (eg JP CTR-02 1/4MOA accurate, Les Baer, etc.)
All that said, it certinly could be improved on in a few little areas.
But slap an EOTech and a Surefire on a floated M4 profile 16" bbl (Bushmaster Modular Carbine is awesome), and there will not be much you cannot handle.
It is as reliable as any other millitary-issue long-arm (let's face it, none are perfect, and soldiers would bitch if you gave them a Golden Gun, M14, M1Garand, etc. all had an 'm16' like stigma.)
It's ergonomics (which lead to fast, on-target shots, which can save your life.) are second to none in my opinion.
And it's *accurate*. When properly set up and still 'combat' worthy, it seems to be nearly bolt-gun accurate. And when using a Wilde chamber a little tighter and set up for competition with a heavy barrel, it kicks many bolt guns butt (eg JP CTR-02 1/4MOA accurate, Les Baer, etc.)
All that said, it certinly could be improved on in a few little areas.
But slap an EOTech and a Surefire on a floated M4 profile 16" bbl (Bushmaster Modular Carbine is awesome), and there will not be much you cannot handle.
artherd
member
I'm from a different school of thought. After hearing enough stories about guys shot (fataly) in the chest with a .45, who keep right on fighting for several minuites before they 'realize' they're dead... Often times they don't even notice they've been shot, and just keep *runnuing*. Dosen't sound like something I'd want to deal with.
I want something with a good chance of ending the fight NOW (which means CNS damage basically.)
.223 and .308 and up provide a darned good chance of hitting that CNS. I'm frankly underwhelmed by 7.62x39's ballistics, especially when FMJ ammo is employed.
And while a .22LR is definately the ultimate *SURVIVAL* gun (I can carry a 1000round brick of .22LR with me for a loooong time.) I feel it is inferior enough as a self-defense tool to matter. Still much better than a stick or a rock though.
Tomac
Member
Under survival stress the first thing that goes out the window is fine motor control so forget about precision aimed shots w/*any* caliber (ever wonder how there can be so many cops [regardless of training/skill] who can't seem to hit the broad side of a barn in a shootout?).
The only ways to stop an aggressive, determined attacker are:
1) Hit to the central nervous system (brain case is fairly well protected by the skull and the spine [on the back side of the body] isn't overly large).
2) Shut down the brain from oxygen starvation by bleeding out (gotta hit a major blood vessel for this to occur in any reasonable length of time).
3) Physical incapacitation by breaking bones & shredding muscle (pelvic girdle, for example).
Nothing capable of being handled by one man is *guaranteed* to accomplish one of those three possiblities 100% of the time (although some seem to come pretty close).
Any firearm/caliber to be used for self-defense must be capable of sufficient penetration to reach major blood vessels, the brain & spine as well as capable of breaking bone. Anything less and you've drastically lowered your chances of survival.
For basic home defense I keep a .45 at hand & 12ga nearby (shoot a bad guy w/an "evil black rifle" and the press has a field day but shred him w/a shotgun and almost no one notices). For "more serious" situations I have my AK-74 clone for CQB & Romak-3 for longer distances.
Tomac
The only ways to stop an aggressive, determined attacker are:
1) Hit to the central nervous system (brain case is fairly well protected by the skull and the spine [on the back side of the body] isn't overly large).
2) Shut down the brain from oxygen starvation by bleeding out (gotta hit a major blood vessel for this to occur in any reasonable length of time).
3) Physical incapacitation by breaking bones & shredding muscle (pelvic girdle, for example).
Nothing capable of being handled by one man is *guaranteed* to accomplish one of those three possiblities 100% of the time (although some seem to come pretty close).
Any firearm/caliber to be used for self-defense must be capable of sufficient penetration to reach major blood vessels, the brain & spine as well as capable of breaking bone. Anything less and you've drastically lowered your chances of survival.
For basic home defense I keep a .45 at hand & 12ga nearby (shoot a bad guy w/an "evil black rifle" and the press has a field day but shred him w/a shotgun and almost no one notices). For "more serious" situations I have my AK-74 clone for CQB & Romak-3 for longer distances.
Tomac
Centerfire rifles in urban areas will most likely end up killing your neighbors and other innocents WHEN you miss. I am almost in disbelief that someone could recommend a .22 long rifle for anything involving this subject.
Now I know why they call it the errornet.
Now I know why they call it the errornet.
Well I'll just jump right on in
Howabout a Beretta Cx4 Storm? Cmon, 9mm is significantly better than .22 for stopping purposes, and recoil is still low and ammo is still readily available. Let's face it, in a survival situation you would want ammunition that most other people are gonna be using, and 9mm fits that niche.
Also takes your handgun mags if you have a Beretta or a Taurus.
supposed to be very light and easy to maintain, too.
And cmon, it looks awesome scoped!
Howabout a Beretta Cx4 Storm? Cmon, 9mm is significantly better than .22 for stopping purposes, and recoil is still low and ammo is still readily available. Let's face it, in a survival situation you would want ammunition that most other people are gonna be using, and 9mm fits that niche.
Also takes your handgun mags if you have a Beretta or a Taurus.
supposed to be very light and easy to maintain, too.
And cmon, it looks awesome scoped!
Respectfully, I have several thousand rounds downrange under "stressfire" close-range CQB/MOUT-type training, and no, one really can't hit much faster with a .22 LR than a 5.56x45mm.
Not even everyone shot in the head with rifle rounds dies. I know of several cases where centerfire rounds- at least one of them an intermediate rifle round- did not stop someone with a head shot. If even a rifle round may not do the job, why the hell would you want to use less?
Really, the big divide isn't between 5.56 and 7.62, or 9mm and .45, or even between 12 Gauge and .22 LR- it's between having a firearm and not having one. No question. Still, it makes no sense to limit yourself, when one has better options.
Your choice.
Your life...and your family's. Choose well.
John
(Tomac- also can be more concisely phrased as:
1. Electrical,
2. Hydraulic, or
3. Structural failure.
)Tomac
Member
(Tomac- also can be more concisely phrased as:
1. Electrical,
2. Hydraulic, or
3. Structural failure. )
LOL!...
Tomac
1. Electrical,
2. Hydraulic, or
3. Structural failure. )
LOL!...
Tomac
I know .22 is not a lot, but i doubt anyone is going to be shot with anything, and i also doubt that someone is going to look at a calico and be like, thats only a .22, lets rush him.
on the other hand, i have a great 9mm for the job, i have a tec-9, and contrary to what other ppl would say, it would be great for the job. the only tec-9 that is a jam-o-matic is one that doesnt have strong enough magazine springs.Everyone that i talked to about mine said it was a POS, until i talked to a gun shop owner who actually knows how guns work, and is an ex. officer of the law. He said he had one, and he didnt beleive it until he saw it, but his ran like a champ, and it was decently accurate too. He was the one who told me to get stronger mag springs also, and it has ran like a champ ever since.
If i was going to take a 9mm into something, i would probably take my tec, as it feeds anything, and with the sling, i can almost obtain a cheek weld like a rifle. So, if not a rifle, i would take my tec -9.
flame suit on, once again.
on the other hand, i have a great 9mm for the job, i have a tec-9, and contrary to what other ppl would say, it would be great for the job. the only tec-9 that is a jam-o-matic is one that doesnt have strong enough magazine springs.Everyone that i talked to about mine said it was a POS, until i talked to a gun shop owner who actually knows how guns work, and is an ex. officer of the law. He said he had one, and he didnt beleive it until he saw it, but his ran like a champ, and it was decently accurate too. He was the one who told me to get stronger mag springs also, and it has ran like a champ ever since.
If i was going to take a 9mm into something, i would probably take my tec, as it feeds anything, and with the sling, i can almost obtain a cheek weld like a rifle. So, if not a rifle, i would take my tec -9.
flame suit on, once again.
yayarx7
Member
The only problem I ever had with a tec-9 was an AD.
INTRATEC
MODEL TEC-9,
9MM LUGER CALIBER, PISTOL
RECALL: During a recent investigation of an accidental discharge involving a 9mm TEC-9 pistol manufactured by INTRATEC, a major safety defect was discovered. This condition can result in serious injury to the firearm examiner or nearby individuals. Please disseminate this information to concerned examiners.
The design of the TEC-9 allows for the protrusion of the firing pin into the bolt face during extraction. This presents no problem during actual firing. Should a live cartridge be cycled through the action, there is a 10 to 20 percent chance of a discharge occurring outside of the chamber area.
While pulling the bolt to the rear, the extractor holds the cartridge (live) in position. When the bolt has traveled to the rear approximately 1 inch, the firing pin then protrudes into the bolt face under significant spring tension. The firing pin's impact with the primer is sufficient to indent the primer cup or sometimes ignite the primer compound. Metal fragments and gas resulting from the case rupture can produce serious injury to the examiner or those in close proximity.
During test firing, eye and hearing protection should always be used. While test firing the pistol, all ammunition should be expended before attempting to make the firearm safe. Manual functioning should employ test (dummy) cartridges. Attempt to maintain a position opposite the ejection port when extracting live cartridges.
INTRATEC
MODEL TEC-9,
9MM LUGER CALIBER, PISTOL
RECALL: During a recent investigation of an accidental discharge involving a 9mm TEC-9 pistol manufactured by INTRATEC, a major safety defect was discovered. This condition can result in serious injury to the firearm examiner or nearby individuals. Please disseminate this information to concerned examiners.
The design of the TEC-9 allows for the protrusion of the firing pin into the bolt face during extraction. This presents no problem during actual firing. Should a live cartridge be cycled through the action, there is a 10 to 20 percent chance of a discharge occurring outside of the chamber area.
While pulling the bolt to the rear, the extractor holds the cartridge (live) in position. When the bolt has traveled to the rear approximately 1 inch, the firing pin then protrudes into the bolt face under significant spring tension. The firing pin's impact with the primer is sufficient to indent the primer cup or sometimes ignite the primer compound. Metal fragments and gas resulting from the case rupture can produce serious injury to the examiner or those in close proximity.
During test firing, eye and hearing protection should always be used. While test firing the pistol, all ammunition should be expended before attempting to make the firearm safe. Manual functioning should employ test (dummy) cartridges. Attempt to maintain a position opposite the ejection port when extracting live cartridges.
entropy
Member
Urban Rifle
My sister's husband came to me with this exact same question, thinking about a 30-06 Rem 7400, but at the same time concerned about penetration. Since he doesn't deer hunt, And insisted it must be a rifle even after repeated attempts to talk him into an 870:banghead: he did agree to a pistol-caliber carbine. He ended up buying a Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm, and he loves it. He had no experience with guns before this; Well , Air Force basic , but no real experience. My sister grew up shooting, so she took to it easy. Their 11 year old can shoot it quite well, (gets it from his mom! ) , I liked it so much I bought a Kel-Tec in 9mm, my 10 year old likes to shoot it, and does quite well, as has everyone I know who has shot one. I believe the Kel-Tec would fill the bill for you quite nicely. Compact, (foldable for storage), you can pick which pistol mags to use, (Glock, S&W, Berretta), Shoots most anything (don't use Blazers, though, they tend to jam) , just a fun little gun that is very useful, too. A new shooter friend of mine, after trying one, said, " Why doesn't the Army use these?!" He had never shot a rifle before this, and was hitting a 6" steel gong at 50 yds. consitently within 20 rounds!
The Kel-Tec has become my "go to" gun, from woodchucks to "bugging out" this one stays with me! Now to get a S&W 5906 to go with it.....
My sister's husband came to me with this exact same question, thinking about a 30-06 Rem 7400, but at the same time concerned about penetration.
Since he doesn't deer hunt, And insisted it must be a rifle even after repeated attempts to talk him into an 870:banghead: he did agree to a pistol-caliber carbine. He ended up buying a Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm, and he loves it. He had no experience with guns before this; Well , Air Force basic , but no real experience. My sister grew up shooting, so she took to it easy. Their 11 year old can shoot it quite well, (gets it from his mom! ) , I liked it so much I bought a Kel-Tec in 9mm, my 10 year old likes to shoot it, and does quite well, as has everyone I know who has shot one. I believe the Kel-Tec would fill the bill for you quite nicely. Compact, (foldable for storage), you can pick which pistol mags to use, (Glock, S&W, Berretta), Shoots most anything (don't use Blazers, though, they tend to jam) , just a fun little gun that is very useful, too. A new shooter friend of mine, after trying one, said, " Why doesn't the Army use these?!" He had never shot a rifle before this, and was hitting a 6" steel gong at 50 yds. consitently within 20 rounds! The Kel-Tec has become my "go to" gun, from woodchucks to "bugging out" this one stays with me! Now to get a S&W 5906 to go with it.....
fix
Member
I wouldn't count on that. If I were faced with an adversary armed with a .22 (obviously) and I were unarmed and no cover was immediately available, I would probably do just that...rather than allow him to take careful aim. Of course, I'm not one of the BGs. Maybe they think differently. If you're willing to take that chance, go right ahead. Me? I think I'd rather have a good knife at typical home defense range.
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