An M.D. Argues the 40 S&W...

[Mowgli Terry]

I recall a guru from long ago who stated that you could not tell the wound of a HP from a FMJ. Still say see how this dance ends. The cost will be high. I'm confused. What auto are we speaking of with a steel receiver in common circulation?

 

[mrmike7189]

This is a good point. How many have shot .40 in a steel framed pistol? How does the recoil feel in comparison to a polymer .40 and polymer 9?

I have shot 40 cal out of a SigP229 & Ruger P944 vs. a Glock 22, and I can tell you there is a big differnce between plastic frame and metal frame.
I sold the Glock 22 because I did not enjoy shooting it

 

[Trunk Monkey]

This is a good point. How many have shot .40 in a steel framed pistol? How does the recoil feel in comparison to a polymer .40 and polymer 9?

 

[Gordon]

Guess people don't realize the more it recoils the harder it hits ! Then again I guess diversity hiring in police agencies trumps all

 

[labnoti]

I recall a guru from long ago who stated that you could not tell the wound of a HP from a FMJ. Still say see how this dance ends. The cost will be high. I'm confused. What auto are we speaking of with a steel receiver in common circulation?

It's not whether it's steel or not, but the mass and balance of the gun. People take polymer-framed guns like the M&P 2.0 and they add tungsten guide-rods and tactical flashlights on the front rail to bring the mass up and the balance forward. They don't even actually use the flashlight in competitive sport shooting, but have it there just for weight in open division. Because they're also running compensators and may even be shooting 9x19mm, guess what? The weight advantage isn't just for recoil.

But there are steel-framed guns that are very much in common circulation. The CZ-75 B and CZ-75 SP01 are good examples. I think CZ discontinued them in .40 S&W in 2018, but they're still in stores. There is also the Tactical Sport. Then there are the all the Tangfoglio EAA Witness variants in .40. There are also steel-framed 1911's chambered in .40. Then there are all the alloy-framed .40's like the Beretta 96, Sig P226, P229 and Kahr, which, materially, are more massive than typical polymer 9mm's.

If your sponsor doesn't make a steel or metal-framed gun, you can add the tungsten guide-rod, flashlight, or solid-gold forward-grip. But people trying to win in competition that aren't limited to the plastic guns their sponsor produces have a high probability of choosing a metal gun with substantial mass. Duty and concealed carry are only different in the respect that people make choices based on their comfort as a result of the weight of the gun on their belt. People choose 9mm because they have a hard time keeping their pants up with anything but an unweighted plastic gun. If they could add 10 to 20 ounces to the gun and still keep their pants up, they would not have a preference for 9mm. It's not a ballistics issue, it's a pants issue.

 

[IdaD]

I've never thought there was a whole lot of difference in recoil in a 9mm vs a 40, especially if the former is a +p. 45 feels different to me but just slower as opposed to more or less recoil. I don't think any of the three has excessive recoil in the platforms I've shot.

 

[The Evangelist Cowboy]

I imagine doctors are more focused on repairing damage than discerning & documenting wound differences; I don't imagine this happens:
"Hey nurse, bring me a dial caliper this wound looks a little bigger than normal; I knew it !!! .95 - State Patrol carries 45 HST.
Usually the wounds run about .60 from the city PD shootings and their 9mm Gold Dots
Last week was a surprise, it was between what I usually see, dial caliper read .70 - turns out county sheriff was carrying a 40.
If you don't mind document the .95 from the 45 HST on the chart, I like to be through, not make anecdotal generalizations."

Even if there were documented differences, guess what ... spoiler... it doesn't matter ... amiright
Because "small" differences in wounding are not as important as putting as many rounds on target in the least time, says popular consensus.

My brother is a surgical tech and LVN soon to get his RN to be a surgical nurse, his best friend is a Surgical Nurse currently. They work at SAMMC Army hospital in San Antone, they're the "gun nuts" and during gun shot surgeries they actually go into trying to verify caliber and seeing the damage done to a living target. Nothing to say which caliber is best but just saying some medical personnel are actually gun guys that go into things like that on the job

 

[Mowgli Terry]

I can't comment on competition guns. I just finished shooting a 90 shot fun match with a Colt 1911 with SWC target loads. Heavy does make a difference. But in this discussion are we talking right now about two distinctly different kinds of handgun? Does weight make polymer framed unshootable? I don't think HK's lacks anything in mass or accuracy for that matter. You have to admit aside from the steel framed 1911 based guns choices are slim in steel. My interest is in usable everyday handguns. I really think there is a bunch of Kool-Aid drinking going on with this caliber thing. I'm gonna shoot my G21 in my fun match next week for laughs and giggles. I'd use the G20 but do not have any rounds loaded. I still think if one cannot handle the gun they have it certainly should be replaced. To me, I like an enjoy shooting 40 caliber Glock's and miss my 40 caliber HK USPC. If find these gun easy to use reliable and accurate. I really miss my G29.

 

[ATLDave]

I can't comment on competition guns. I just finished shooting a 90 shot fun match with a Colt 1911 with SWC target loads. Heavy does make a difference. But in this discussion are we talking right now about two distinctly different kinds on handgun? Does weight make polymer framed unshootable? I don't think HK's lacks anything in mass or accuracy for that matter. You have to admit aside from the steel framed 1911 based guns choices are slim in steel.

CZ and Tanfoglio both principally sell steel-framed guns (though they do have polymer ones, too).

 

[Mowgli Terry]

CZ and Tanfoglio both principally sell steel-framed guns (though they do have polymer ones, too).

That seems kinda slim. Let's compare that to the polymer receivers on the market. Wonder why?

 

[ATLDave]

That's not an exhaustive list. But between those and 1911/2011 things, I don't need any other brands.

As for "why," it's pretty easy: Polymer frames are cheaper to make in vast quantities, and, as discussed above, many customers like the lightness of polymer frames... without ever having connected the dots that a lighter frame = more recoil. Get into the games where shooting performance is measured objectively, and you start to see a much greater percentage of steel frames. Most people don't measure their shooting performance, so they have no idea what they are missing.

The difference isn't huge at minor PF levels, but you get to major PF - i.e., most .40 ammo - and it becomes more noticeable. When high-level competitive shooters use plastic-framed guns in divisions that reward shooting 40/major ammo, they often attach big weights to the frames to make the gun weigh as much as a steel frame would:

 

[Garandimal]

I find the .40 to be much snappier than 45 in my limited experience. Friend has a glock 22 and another has a Springfield XD mod2 subcompact 45 and I have a 1911.

Have and shoot regularly both the compact Glock G36 .45 ACP and G23.4 .40 S&W.

They are essentially, (+/-), the same pistol with the same muzzle energy.

The 230 gr. .45 ACP has a higher/longer recoil impulse - the 180 gr. .40 has a lower/shorter recoil impulse.




GR

 

[C-grunt]

It's not whether it's steel or not, but the mass and balance of the gun. People take polymer-framed guns like the M&P 2.0 and they add tungsten guide-rods and tactical flashlights on the front rail to bring the mass up and the balance forward. They don't even actually use the flashlight in competitive sport shooting, but have it there just for weight in open division. Because they're also running compensators and may even be shooting 9x19mm, guess what? The weight advantage isn't just for recoil.

But there are steel-framed guns that are very much in common circulation. The CZ-75 B and CZ-75 SP01 are good examples. I think CZ discontinued them in .40 S&W in 2018, but they're still in stores. There is also the Tactical Sport. Then there are the all the Tangfoglio EAA Witness variants in .40. There are also steel-framed 1911's chambered in .40. Then there are all the alloy-framed .40's like the Beretta 96, Sig P226, P229 and Kahr, which, materially, are more massive than typical polymer 9mm's.

If your sponsor doesn't make a steel or metal-framed gun, you can add the tungsten guide-rod, flashlight, or solid-gold forward-grip. But people trying to win in competition that aren't limited to the plastic guns their sponsor produces have a high probability of choosing a metal gun with substantial mass. Duty and concealed carry are only different in the respect that people make choices based on their comfort as a result of the weight of the gun on their belt. People choose 9mm because they have a hard time keeping their pants up with anything but an unweighted plastic gun. If they could add 10 to 20 ounces to the gun and still keep their pants up, they would not have a preference for 9mm. It's not a ballistics issue, it's a pants issue.

9mm also carries more ammo. It's not just lower recoil.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

As for "why," it's pretty easy: Polymer frames are cheaper to make in vast quantities, and, as discussed above, many customers like the lightness of polymer frames..

I'm not sure how all this competitive thing has to do with everyday life. We are talking two different worlds. One thing about it is that it's hard to argue with success. For a personal carry and LE sidearms it's hard to beat polymer handguns. So I carry a light weight 40 caliber handgun. The ball is in my court to learn how to use the gun. I do not see the 40S&W to be a hard cartridge to handle. Fourteen rounds of 40 S&W should be enough, This stuff about competitive handguns has no relevance to everyday use. I am fairly comfortable the some of these people who carry the polymer handguns are competent to make reasoned decisions about their handguns. Furthermore, one or two of those people may be able to wreck the ten ring on a B27. When in a troll mode I contend that 9mm is the largest of the mouse guns. Not there today. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[labnoti]

I knew the capacity would come up. But guess what? There are ~30 round magazines in both. So it's still a pants issue.

In my earlier post, I mentioned why higher magazine capacity isn't necessarily a good thing. When the ammo becomes a large portion of the gun's mass, the balance and handling can change substantially based on the magazine condition. This is especially the case with handguns with magazines in the grip that place all the weight aft.

Tactically speaking, there is some point at which more ammo is better kept in spare magazines. Magazine changes can be very fast and in a practical sense, it shouldn't be hard to find a time and place for a mag change within 15 rounds. A lot of people with revolvers and 1911's, including myself, are comfortable finding a place for a reload after 7 or 8 and find it works best to keep the munitions depot off the actual gun itself.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

Get into the games where shooting performance is measured objectively, and you start to see a much greater percentage of steel frames. Most people don't measure their shooting performance, so they have no idea what they are missing.

I'd like to point out that a I did shoot Bullseye for several seasons before moving on to another interest. During that time I use a Shockey converted 1911 Colt. Attached through the trigger guard was a rather large weight. Along with this weight the handgun had Bomar sights including a an extended front sight. I moved on to black powder competition. There I shot three custom black powder guns. I feel that these black powder guns were as relevant to my 40 caliber "plastic" handgun" as what people use in the competition spoken of above. Was my custom Colt suitable for a carry handgun? I'd stick with my "Plastic" 40 caliber Glock with recoil and muzzle flip and all.

 

[ATLDave]

I am fairly comfortable the some of these people who carry the polymer handguns are competent to make reasoned decisions about their handguns. Furthermore, one or two of those people may be able to wreck the ten ring on a B27. When in a troll mode I contend that 9mm is the largest of the mouse guns. Not there today. Let's agree to disagree.

I’m not even sure we disagree. Weight and size are both valid considerations for carry guns. To recap the points I have tried to make

• Some people complain about 40 being difficult to handle while basing that on having only used polymer guns in that caliber.
• Weight has a significant recoil-damping effect.
• In highly time-pressured games where recoil control is directly related to results (such as IPSC/USPSA, not necessarily bullseye) and performance is directly measured, there is pretty broad agreement that, when dealing with .40 cal ammo, a relatively heavy pistol is so beneficial to shooting performance that it is virtually necessary to have a heavy gun- or to make a light gun heavier... if you’re competing against other shooters with heavy guns.
• The competition information is relevant to self-defense uses because it involves the same kind of shooting performance and demonstrates the role that weight plays in it. Particularly as the power and recoil gets into the range of .40 cal.
• Almost all carry guns are some sort of compromise. Again, that’s sensible even inevitable. People should just be aware of what compromises they are making.
• It’s entirely reasonable for some users - such as yourself - to conclude that the best set of compromises is a fairly powerful cartridge and a lightweight gun. Your personal recoil tolerance and recoil control may make this work. It doesn’t work for some people, who then complain about the cartridge being “snappy” without recognizing the role their choice of launcher played in their experience.
• I am NOT telling you that you are doing anything wrong or choosing poorly.

 

[amd6547]

That's not an exhaustive list. But between those and 1911/2011 things, I don't need any other brands.

As for "why," it's pretty easy: Polymer frames are cheaper to make in vast quantities, and, as discussed above, many customers like the lightness of polymer frames... without ever having connected the dots that a lighter frame = more recoil. Get into the games where shooting performance is measured objectively, and you start to see a much greater percentage of steel frames. Most people don't measure their shooting performance, so they have no idea what they are missing.

The difference isn't huge at minor PF levels, but you get to major PF - i.e., most .40 ammo - and it becomes more noticeable. When high-level competitive shooters use plastic-framed guns in divisions that reward shooting 40/major ammo, they often attach big weights to the frames to make the gun weigh as much as a steel frame would:

View attachment 851803

The definition of “gamer gun” that has no application to real world self defense handguns.
Some of us started with all steel handguns...because there wasn’t anything else. I did. No desire to go back, because I have no problem shooting the Glock. In fact, I gave up the Browning HiPower after I found I shot the G26 just as well or better. Likewise, I was on a 45acp path for a while, and got a G30...didn’t notice any problem shooting it as compared to a full sized 1911.

 

[ATLDave]

The definition of “gamer gun” that has no application to real world self defense handguns.

Both CZ and Tanfo’ make compact sized guns. And guns that are service-sized without being too large for IWB carry.

And you can put a true gamer gun in the bedside safe for self defense at home quite easily. “No application” is not true.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

And you can put a true gamer gun in the bedside safe for self defense at home quite easily. “No application” is not true.

Is too true: Look this assortment of steel frame guns is getting smaller. Would the steel compact handguns cause your pants to fall down? I stand by what I say. The the gun is no good because I can't shoot it does not fly. The Glock, the main "Plastic" gun is long-lived, reliable, and accurate. Also very economical compared to similar steel guns. You imply that steel frame completion handguns are not tricked out. Not sure I'd go there. I'd rather have the muscle memory of my carry gun in 40 caliber-the Glock 23.4 with Glock night sights for night time use. This makes sense to me. Muzzle flip and recoil is not an obstacle. The gamer gun for night defense does not fly for me. Muzzle flip and heavy recoil ,to me is ,seriously exaggerated. I stand by what I say. Round the house it's the polymer 40 cal G23.4 stock as a doorknob.

 

[ATLDave]

I feel like we're going in circles here.

• The 40 has more recoil than a 9mm. That's just math.
• Some people find this to be a problem, some don't. Everyone who doesn't find this to be a problem can get off the train now, you're already good-to-go. The rest of the conversation is for people who do think it's a problem.
• Of those who find the 40's recoil to be troublesome or a big reason to prefer 9mm, many of them have little or no awareness of how weight can damp it (as reflected by what people choose in competition, which is the only reason I reference it).
• Adding weight/choosing a heavier gun may or may not be an acceptable "solution" for those who find the 40's recoil to be too much. For a person who feels like the 40 recoils too much for their comfort and who cannot/will not move to a heavier gun, yes, those people more or less "need" to stick to 9mm.

FWIW, my bedside-safe/home defense gun is a heavy steel framed gun in 10mm. And I sometimes carry it. More often, I carry a steel-framed commander-sized 1911 in 45ACP because it is slightly easier to conceal.

 

[Robbins290]

I feel like we're going in circles here.

• The 40 has more recoil than a 9mm. That's just math.
• Some people find this to be a problem, some don't. Everyone who doesn't find this to be a problem can get off the train now, you're already good-to-go. The rest of the conversation is for people who do think it's a problem.
• Of those who find the 40's recoil to be troublesome or a big reason to prefer 9mm, many of them have little or no awareness of how weight can damp it (as reflected by what people choose in competition, which is the only reason I reference it).
• Adding weight/choosing a heavier gun may or may not be an acceptable "solution" for those who find the 40's recoil to be too much. For a person who feels like the 40 recoils too much for their comfort and who cannot/will not move to a heavier gun, yes, those people more or less "need" to stick to 9mm.

FWIW, my bedside-safe/home defense gun is a heavy steel framed gun in 10mm. And I sometimes carry it. More often, I carry a steel-framed commander-sized 1911 in 45ACP because it is slightly easier to conceal.

For me it is about cost. 5,000 rounds min a year. Say 40 ammo is 10 cents more a round. (have not bought any in a long time, not sure the current price), thats 500 dollars i save a year. Enough for me to buy a 500 dollar gun. Sometimes it can be as high as 10k rounds a year. I own a couple glocks in 40, but shoot them with a 9mm barrel in them. I have no problem with 40 Or claim the 9mm is better then the 40 (power factor) but having to pay for my own ammo. The 9mm is the better choice for me.

 

[ATLDave]

but having to pay for my own ammo. The 9mm is the better choice for me.

A totally valid consideration.

 

[pblanc]

It is true that .40 S&W is more expensive than 9 mm Luger ammunition, and if you shoot a lot the additional cost adds up. But if you exclude 22 long rifle, .40 S&W is the second cheapest practical defensive handgun ammunition around (and I don't really consider 22 LR to be a practical defensive handgun cartridge).

Where I live, it is invariably cheaper than 38 Special, 357 Magnum, 380 Auto, 45 ACP, 10 mm, and 357 SIG.

 

[labnoti]

The price difference is closer to 5 cents per round if you buy bulk or reload. It would be reasonable to expect the difference in factory ammo cost to grow as 40 falls in popularity, but the price difference of reloads should not grow.