Capacity of CCW Handgun

[MikeInOr]

Be really good at being in the wrong place at the wrong time



Private Security

I guess that is the difference between us... I am really good at not being in the wrong places at the wrong time... which I consider my first line of defense! I am sure our different experiences changes our views on carry weapons. I don't feel I need to stop a perp with one shot... I just need to stun them long enough to get my ass to a safe place. Putting one shot in the center of mass then a second in the center of the face while exiting very quickly is my game plan. If the assailant is dead, so be it... I don't really care as long as they are no where near me! I have a very hard time envisioning ever needing to fire at someone more than 10 yards away... even though I am quite proficient in shooting at distances much farther than this.

If I were a cop and my job was to seek out and subdue trouble my view of what pistol I will carry would be VERY different! I am NOT a cop and I AVOID trouble rather than seek it out!

One of my favorite training drills is to toss a can out on the ground then scoring hits on it as it moves down range while my buddy is trying to hit the same can. I learned a long time ago that careful deliberate shots are much more effective than trying to pop a shot off quikly.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

The rest were lost in a tragic boating accident while duck hunting over the Marianas Trench.

My man

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I guess that is the difference between us... I am really good at not being in the wrong places at the wrong time... which I consider my first line of defense! I am sure our different experiences changes our views on carry weapons. I don't feel I need to stop a perp with one shot... I just need to stun them long enough to get my ass to a safe place. Putting one shot in the center of mass then a second in the center of the face while exiting very quickly is my game plan. I have a very hard time envisioning ever needing to fire at someone more than 10 yards away.

If I were a cop and my job was to seek out and subdue trouble my view of what pistol I will carry would be VERY different!

One of my favorite training drills is to toss a can out on the ground then scoring hits on it as it moves down range while my buddy is trying to hit the same can. I learned a long time ago that careful deliberate shots are much more effective than trying to pop a shot off quikly.

I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to respond to this and it just occurred to me that I am never going to convince you.

The only thing that's going to convince you is for you to have your own run-in with a couple of crackheads.

Having said that, I've told this story before a bunch of times. Two guys tried to rob me right outside my home one night. You can practice not being at the wrong place at the wrong time all you want, sometimes trouble finds you anyway.

I have never been involved in a shooting incident that lasted longer than 30 seconds and I've never been involved in one where I've had anything like time to prepare (If I had I'd have got the Hell our of Dodge).

By the time you overcome inertia, convince yourself this really is happening and react the whole thing is very likely to be over. You are not going to just square up on someone and get two good COM hits and even if you do I've seen people get shot and you couldn't even tell they'd been shot.

And remember you've only got 5 shots to deal with two moving targets who are trying to hurt you. You had better not miss a single shot. But let's assume you connect with all five shots and you're now standing there with your empty snub nose and they're still on their feet and coming at you? Because that's a real thing that happens.

What are you going to do when they walk around the corner and split up on you so one is on your left and one is on your right and you can't deal with the one without turning your back on the other? True story bro. What are you going to do when you tell them to back up and they tell you to screw off? What are you going to do when you draw your gun and they dare you to shoot them? Again, true story bro.

If you really want to put some realism in your can drill instead of having you and your buddy shoot at the can give your buddy a paintball gun or some simuntions and have him shoot at you.

 

[MikeInOr]

I'm sitting here trying to figure out how to respond to this and it just occurred to me that I am never going to convince you.

The only thing that's going to convince you is for you to have your own run-in with a couple of crackheads.

Having said that, I've told this story before a bunch of times. Two guys tried to rob me right outside my home one night. You can practice not being at the wrong place at the wrong time all you want, sometimes trouble finds you anyway.

I have never been involved in a shooting incident that lasted longer than 30 seconds and I've never been involved in one where I've had anything like time to prepare (If I had I'd have got the Hell our of Dodge).

By the time you overcome inertia, convince yourself this really is happening and react the whole thing is very likely to be over. You are not going to just square up on someone and get two good COM hits and even if you do I've seen people get shot and you couldn't even tell they'd been shot.

And remember you've only got 5 shots to deal with two moving targets who are trying to hurt you. You had better not miss a single shot. But let's assume you connect with all five shots and you're now standing there with your empty snub nose and they're still on their feet and coming at you? Because that's a real thing that happens.

What are you going to do when they walk around the corner and split up on you so one is on your left and one is on your right and you can't deal with the one without turning your back on the other? True story bro. What are you going to do when you tell them to back up and they tell you to screw off? What are you going to do when you draw your gun and they dare you to shoot them? Again, true story bro.

If you really want to put some realism in your can drill instead of having you and your buddy shoot at the can give your buddy a paintball gun or some some simuntions and have him shoot at you.

You live in a very different world than I do. If I lived in your world I would prabably have an opinion more along the lines of yours. If I have time to fire 5 shots I am going to be running in the opposite direction. If I am confronted by 2 crack heads in front of my house there will be two German sheppards latched onto their respective throats.

With your experences and the neighborhood you seem to live in I have no problem with you wanting to carry a high capacity 10mm. But just because that is right for you does not mean it is right for everyone!

P.S. I usually carry an XD mod 2 when i am out around my property or even just humping the garbage cans to the street. In my world I am much more likely (and have been) confronted by an aggresive buck during mating season. There are bob cats and coyotes around but they are very timid and I have never seen them. One of the very few times I have drawn and shot my gun is when one of my sheppards squared off and cornered a REALLY PISSED OFF porcupine!

 

[Trunk Monkey]

You live in a very different world than I do. If I lived in your world I would prabably have an opinion more along the lines of yours. If I have time to fire 5 shots I am going to be running in the opposite direction. If I am confronted by 2 crack heads in front of my house there will be two German sheppards latched onto their respective throats.

With your experences and the neighborhood you seem to live in I have no problem with you wanting to carry a high capacity 10mm. But just because that is right for you does not mean it is right for everyone!

What are you going to do if you can't run in the opposite direction? You're not going to be fighting the fight that you're planning for in your brain. You're going to be fighting the fight that gets handed to you.

The reality is what JohnSKA posted. If it's two on one and one of them doesn't bail immediately you're pretty much screwed.

The same crackheads who live in my world, live in your world.

 

[MikeInOr]

The same crackheads who live in my world, live in your world.

I know it is human nature to think that everyones life is like your life... but they aren't.

I would NEVER tell you that you SHOULD carry a 5 shot revolver... maybe it isn't your place to tell me I SHOULDN'T?

 

[mavracer]

I put sometimes, since I got my Hellcat it's about 50/50.

 

[CDW4ME]

We do this same discussion every couple of months. Every time we do pretty much the same people say pretty much the same things.

I usually talk about the stoned crackheads who surrounded me one morning and made me decide the less than 10 rounds was not enough.

Since Coronageddon started I've been mostly carrying my Glock 26 with a 19 magazine as a reload for a 28 rounds total.

I don't remember exactly how I said it but in one of these arguments I said something to the effect that if I ever have to defend myself I don't want the bare minimum, I want more rounds than I will ever need. That hasn't changed.

You do you

Look over the replies, predictable and common is carry based on location, carry a pocket gun in a "good" area but go "up" to ____ elsewhere.
"Bad" people are conveniently expected to be immobile, they have to go to them. (Not)

If they have to defend their life in a "good" area they are willing to settle for a pocket gun, elsewhere they want more.
Contentment with "better than nothing" (when they don't have to) is not likely to change. (Takes personal experience like yours).

Post video where a single man was not incapacitated by 5-6 hits and it will be rationalized as not applicable.
Most common is if the shooter is a cop, the rationalization will be they are not a cop therefore the example is inapplicable to them.

You & I agree, I'd much rather have rounds left over than not have enough, and those bullets will be at least 9mm regardless of where I am.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I know it is human nature to think that everyones life is like your life... but they aren't.

I would NEVER tell you that you SHOULD carry a 5 shot revolver... maybe it isn't your place to tell me I SHOULDN'T?

You do you

 

[AK103K]

He will have 3 rounds left! 1 well placed shot is worth more than 10 spray and pray shots! Funny thing about carrying a 5 shot revolver is you know you have to make every shot count... so you do!

In a perfect world, and that gunfight you always win in your mind, maybe. In the real world? Who knows. You get what you get, and you usually dont get to choose. The only thing you do get to choose, is the gun you bring along to deal with whatever you get.

Since we can never know what we might get, bringing enough gun to deal with as many things as possible, only makes the most sense.

And just an FYI, the second you throw "Spray and pray" out there, youre credibility goes right out the window with me. Id be willing to bet, I can get 10 rounds off faster than you can 5 out of your J frame, and have better hits on target too.

Spray and pray is a function of the shooter, not the weapon.

I can shoot my J frames pretty well, but its usually an annoying practice session, mostly, because as they arent pleasant to shoot, and I dread having to practice with them anymore, but I do, so I can stay on top of them.

The two things that stand out the most when I do shoot them is, as soon as you introduce multiple targets, they run dry "way" to fast, and I cant shoot as well with them, if youre shooting the least bit realistically (from the holster and moving while you shoot, etc).

I get the impression, a lot of people think that, because they can slowly shoot tight little groups at fairly close distances, they are proficient with what they choose to carry. Those people are deluding themselves.

Its been my experience a couple of times now, when I say, no, you have to start from how youre carrying the gun, draw as you move offline, and shoot as you go, and we base things on those results, that I get that "deer in the headlights" look. "Whaaat??"

Id be willing to bet, the majority of people who are now carrying a gun, have never drawn and fired a live round from it in practice, from how they carry it.

Let alone, be able to do that automatically, under stress, without having to think about doing it.

Theres a LOT more to this, than just having a gun in your pocket or holster. Thats the easiest part. .

 

[jar]

Almost never. Most will be less than ten rounds.

 

[JDeere]

No need to and I don't hang out in places contemplating a fire fight. Proper training is key. Spray and pray is for the movies.

 

[Kleanbore]

1 well placed shot is worth more than 10 spray and pray shots!

Do you know of any recognized defensive shooting trainers who advise shooting one shot at an attacker?

I am really good at not being in the wrong places at the wrong time... which I consider my first line of defense!

Excellent thinking!

I don't feel I need to stop a perp with one shot...

Good. You probably won't. It could happen, but that would be a very lucky shot.

If I have time to fire 5 shots I am going to be running in the opposite direction.

How does it take you to fire five shots?

 

[AK103K]

No need to and I don't hang out in places contemplating a fire fight. Proper training is key. Spray and pray is for the movies.

This seems to be a pretty common answer/response. Yet, no matter where you are, bad things happen, and no matter how much you try and avoid it.

We live in a very rural area and recently had a double murder and shootout in a restaurant parking lot, not too far from here. In the decade or so we've lived here, there have been a number of killings and violent assaults, and they seem to happen on a regular enough basis, they arent uncommon, and in a place, you would think, was one of those places you go to, to avoid the "bad" places. Its one of the reasons we settled here.

Look, this is just life. People are people and people are basically the same everywhere. You have good and you have not so good, and you will find that, anywhere you go. Every day is a new adventure, and every knock on the door can go either way. You never know until you answer it whats coming. And in that moment, you get to deal with anything you get, with everything you have on you, right then.

 

[Old Dog]

We do this same discussion every couple of months. Every time we do pretty much the same people say pretty much the same things.

I usually talk about the stoned crackheads who surrounded me one morning and made me decide the less than 10 rounds was not enough.

Since Coronageddon started I've been mostly carrying my Glock 26 with a 19 magazine as a reload for a 28 rounds total.

I don't remember exactly how I said it but in one of these arguments I said something to the effect that if I ever have to defend myself I don't want the bare minimum, I want more rounds than I will ever need. That hasn't changed.

You do you

Quoted for truth. And this states my feelings on the matter pretty succinctly as well.

He will have 3 rounds left! 1 well placed shot is worth more than 10 spray and pray shots! Funny thing about carrying a 5 shot revolver is you know you have to make every shot count... so you do!

This is the standard rationalization I always hear from those that carry sub-optimum handguns.

Yet, every time I go to the range (weekly, and I belong to one gun club and frequent two commercial ranges), I hardly EVER see anyone doing any kind of productive target shooting or training with a J-frame S&W. EVER.

Justify your own choice if need be, but quit with the stupid implications and outright accusations that those of us who carry higher-capacity handguns indulge in "spray and pray" and/or are incapable of aimed fire.

That just becomes so tiresome.

 

[Kleanbore]

Justify your own choice if need be, but quit with the stupid accusation that those of us who carry higher-capacity handguns "spray and pray." That just becomes so tiresome.

It is certainly indicative of

1. Ignorance of the speed and violence of violent attacks
2. A complete lack of familiarity with the requirements of defensive shooting
3. Lack of a realistic appreciation of handgun wounding
4. Lack of training

We all start out with those limitations.

If we are going to carry a firearm for self preservation, it behooves us to remedy them.

 

[Pudge]

I think we need to not take the comments here personally. The recommendations and input are good, it doesn't matter where you are, if forced to use your CCW, it will be what you have. That said, not everyone's environment is the same. Where I live, I am not a target of opportunity, that impacts my home defense strategy, but that does not change the fact that if I'm in an altercation and forced to rely on my CCW to defend myself, that is what I'll have. We all make our choices and take our chances, but it is not a bad thing to consider what the ramification of those choices actually are.

 

[JR24]

Always, since my back decided that my VBob was too heavy for daily carry.

If I gotta go lighter than a commander bobtail steel 1911, in God's caliber, then I'll just go high capacity 9mm.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

That said, not everyone's environment is the same. Where I live, I am not a target of opportunity,

See that's the thing I don't think people understand you absolutely are a target of opportunity. It just hasn't happened yet.

Every time a discussion like this comes up I heard people say Things like that just don't happen where I live." They do you just don't hear about them.


These folks lived in a great, safe, neighborhood too. In fact they lived in one of the safest neighborhoods in America

Quote:
The Cheshire, Connecticut, home invasion murders occurred on July 23, 2007. Jennifer Hawke-Petit and her 11 year old daughter were raped and both were murdered along with her 17 year old daughter, while her husband, Dr. William Petit, was severely injured, during a home invasion in Cheshire, Connecticut.[1] The Hartford Courant referred to the case as "possibly the most widely publicized crime in the state's history".[2] In 2010, Steven Hayes was convicted of the murders and sentenced to death. His accomplice, Joshua Komisarjevsky, was found guilty on October 13, 2011, and sentenced to death on January 27, 2012.[3] In August 2015, the Connecticut Supreme Court, in defiance of the State Legislature which had abolished the death penalty only for future cases, ruled that the death penalty was unconstitutional, and commuted all death sentences to life-in-prison, even if that sentencing took place prior to the date that the death penalty was abolished.
Cheshire, Connecticut, home invasion murders - Wikipedia

Violence like that is random, your number may never come up or it might come up the next time you walk into Walmart. All it took for this to happen was for an eleven year old girl to catch the eye of an ex-con who just happened to be in the same grocery store her mom was shopping in and for him to decide she was hot and he wanted to rape her. An eleven year old girl.

 

[TomJ]

He will have 3 rounds left! 1 well placed shot is worth more than 10 spray and pray shots! Funny thing about carrying a 5 shot revolver is you know you have to make every shot count... so you do!

I'm going to guess that you've never had to draw your gun in a SD scenario. If you did you'd understand that in that situation keeping calm and placing one well placed shot is pretty difficult.

Attached is a link to a study by Greg Ellifritz. It's a pretty comprehensive study. In the shootings quoted in this study one stop shots occurred 39% of the time with 38 Special and 44% of the time with 357 Magnum. Put another way, your odds of achieving a one shot stop are less than 50%. I'm not relying on those odds to defend my life. The average number of rounds until incapacitation were 1.87 and 1.7 rounds, respectively. Whether or not you carry a 5 shot revolver has no bearing on me, but with the number of new shooters we have I don't want one of them reading your posts and believing one stop shots are the norm or that they should plan on them.

On another note, anyone using spray and pray is completely irresponsible. If you carry a gun you are responsible for every round that leaves your barrel. Using spray and pray as a strategy puts the lives of bystanders at risk. I live in the Chicago area which is obviously well populated and the odds of hitting a bystander using that strategy are not insignificant. I'd like to think I'm a little more responsible than that and every shot I'd fire would count.

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/an-alternate-look-at-handgun-stopping-power

 

[Old Dog]

That said, not everyone's environment is the same. Where I live, I am not a target of opportunity, that impacts my home defense strategy

Yeah, I've responded to a number of home invasions, rapes, violent assaults and homicides in places where people believed this. There is no Mayberry anymore, Pudge. Sorry. Not only are the bad folks quite mobile, they fully comprehend the "nice neighborhoods" and the quiet rural areas are easy pickings and victim-rich environs.

 

[JR24]

In a perfect world, and that gunfight you always win in your mind, maybe. In the real world? Who knows. You get what you get, and you usually dont get to choose. The only thing you do get to choose, is the gun you bring along to deal with whatever you get.

Since we can never know what we might get, bringing enough gun to deal with as many things as possible, only makes the most sense.

And just an FYI, the second you throw "Spray and pray" out there, youre credibility goes right out the window with me. Id be willing to bet, I can get 10 rounds off faster than you can 5 out of your J frame, and have better hits on target too.

Spray and pray is a function of the shooter, not the weapon.

I can shoot my J frames pretty well, but its usually an annoying practice session, mostly, because as they arent pleasant to shoot, and I dread having to practice with them anymore, but I do, so I can stay on top of them.

The two things that stand out the most when I do shoot them is, as soon as you introduce multiple targets, they run dry "way" to fast, and I cant shoot as well with them, if youre shooting the least bit realistically (from the holster and moving while you shoot, etc).

I get the impression, a lot of people think that, because they can slowly shoot tight little groups at fairly close distances, they are proficient with what they choose to carry. Those people are deluding themselves.

Its been my experience a couple of times now, when I say, no, you have to start from how youre carrying the gun, draw as you move offline, and shoot as you go, and we base things on those results, that I get that "deer in the headlights" look. "Whaaat??"

Id be willing to bet, the majority of people who are now carrying a gun, have never drawn and fired a live round from it in practice, from how they carry it.

Let alone, be able to do that automatically, under stress, without having to think about doing it.

Theres a LOT more to this, than just having a gun in your pocket or holster. Thats the easiest part. .

Problem is once I started practicing like this, shooting small groups relatively close on a static range is just BORING.

 

[JR24]

Yeah, I've responded to a number of home invasions, rapes, violent assaults and homicides in places where people believed this. There is no Mayberry anymore, Pudge. Sorry. Not only are the bad folks quite mobile, they fully comprehend the "nice neighborhoods" and the quiet rural areas are easy pickings and victim-rich environs.

Yep, my bubble was burst a few years back when there were two armed, day light, home invasions a few miles from my sleepy, rural, law abiding, home.

Luckily the meth heads didn't hurt either of the home owners in the process.

Also had a mass shooting event at a bank in the small, low crime, city I used to work at (even delivered mail to that exact branch occasionally at the time). Domestic, guy decided to shoot his wife, then everyone around as he fled, then eventually an LEO before he was caught.

 

[Old Dog]

I think we need to not take the comments here personally.

Eh, it's the internet! Who takes this stuff personally? But oft-repeated stupidity is still stupidity, and the more it's said, doesn't make it any more true.

 

[mavracer]

The reality is what JohnSKA posted. If it's two on one and one of them doesn't bail immediately you're pretty much screwed

I agree and my argument isn't that I'm not, my argument is that you're probably screwed too.