Capacity of CCW Handgun

[AK103K]

Problem is once I started practicing like this, shooting small groups relatively close on a static range is just BORING.

Aint that the truth.

Shooting those tight little groups is great, but really only confirms you have the basics down. Nothing at all wrong with that, but it is telling you it is time to move along too.

Lately, Ive been forcing myself to take a couple of bullseye targets along and shoot a mag or two at 15-25 yards focusing on just that, the basics. I usually do pretty good with the first mag, but after that, I start getting bored/antsy, and ready to get to bump up the cadence.

What I have found to be even better is, shooting the small pieces of broken clay birds on the berm from the same spot, and quickly going from one to the next. Thats a lot more satisfying, in the moment anyway. Instant gratification.

 

[Pudge]

See that's the thing I don't think people understand you absolutely are a target of opportunity. It just hasn't happened yet.

Every time a discussion like this comes up I heard people say Things like that just don't happen where I live." They do you just don't hear about them.


These folks lived in a great, safe, neighborhood too. In fact they lived in one of the safest neighborhoods in America

Quote:
The Cheshire, Connecticut, home invasion murders occurred on July 23, 2007. Jennifer Hawke-Petit and her 11 year old daughter were raped and both were murdered along with her 17 year old daughter, while her husband, Dr. William Petit, was severely injured, during a home invasion in Cheshire, Connecticut.[1] The Hartford Courant referred to the case as "possibly the most widely publicized crime in the state's history".[2] In 2010, Steven Hayes was convicted of the murders and sentenced to death. His accomplice, Joshua Komisarjevsky, was found guilty on October 13, 2011, and sentenced to death on January 27, 2012.[3] In August 2015, the Connecticut Supreme Court, in defiance of the State Legislature which had abolished the death penalty only for future cases, ruled that the death penalty was unconstitutional, and commuted all death sentences to life-in-prison, even if that sentencing took place prior to the date that the death penalty was abolished.
Cheshire, Connecticut, home invasion murders - Wikipedia

Violence like that is random, your number may never come up or it might come up the next time you walk into Walmart. All it took for this to happen was for an eleven year old girl to catch the eye of an ex-con who just happened to be in the same grocery store her mom was shopping in and for him to decide she was hot and he wanted to rape her. An eleven year old girl.

Good advice. But, I'd contend that, simply because you can envision threats for which I'm unprepared, does not give you any insight into how realistic my home security is, or what threats I'm likely to face. The reality is that a handgun, in and of itself, is a compromise of safety for convenience, regardless of whether it holds at least 10 rounds. We all draw the line somewhere.

 

[Pudge]

Yeah, I've responded to a number of home invasions, rapes, violent assaults and homicides in places where people believed this. There is no Mayberry anymore, Pudge. Sorry. Not only are the bad folks quite mobile, they fully comprehend the "nice neighborhoods" and the quiet rural areas are easy pickings and victim-rich environs.

A target of opportunity vs a target of intent. I have no illusions that I'm invulnerable.

And here I've managed to take 2 posts personally. Sorry. Your advice is spot on, both of you. I'm not special.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

There is a certain logic there. John Farnum said, "The most common stoppage encountered in the revolver . . . [and] in the autoloaders is running out of ammunition." The question is, how much is enough?

And can you trade ammunition capacity for other factors -- such as concealability, shootability and power?

I carry an M1911 (a Kimber that I've carried for more than 25 years) with an 8-round magazine, plus one up the spout, And I carry two 10-round spare magazines,

 

[Trunk Monkey]

We all draw the line somewhere.

I draw the line at the highest capacity in a service caliber that I can reasonably conceal.

 

[Hartkopf]

I carry 16 rounds or more, all the time. My most common form of practice is getting off the X, quick draw and shoot 1 to 5 shots on target ASAP. Re-holster and repeat. (sometimes I don't re-holster, to avoid developing a habit)

Spray and pray is not part of my practice. Should I incorporate mag dumps just because I have lots of ammo on board? Eyes closed mag dumps while praying? If I develop this bad habit, will switching to a 5 shot revolver cure me?

 

[Thomasss]

I got a tie game. I sometimes carry a Springfield XDM on a long trip which is19 + 1 with extra mags in the car. Otherwise for a lighter carry, its a S&W Model 10; 6 in the revolver with two speed loaders.

 

[CDW4ME]

An example where low capacity would be lacking.

 

[Ivy Mike]

An example where low capacity would be lacking.



View attachment 950758

See, this makes me think capacity isn't so much the issue as caliber.
I've had this idea lately that police might be better served with carbines as their standard issue weapons. I am not a cop and I don't know if that's reasonable at all, but a small carbine with a more powerful round seems like it would be very useful.

I saw the guy close the distance with the knife, any idea if the officer sustained any injuries? How many times did the cop actually score a hit?

 

[fastbolt]

I voted "Sometime", because there wasn't an "Every once in a great while" choice.

I only own 1 pistol that uses magazines that hold more the 10rds. It uses 12rd magazines. The rest hold between 6-10rds.

My career in LE spanned the days of service revolvers and service pistols. I bought a lot revolvers during the early years (80's), but I was also a 1911 owner/shooter. My agency transitioned to issued pistols in '90.

During the many years I served as a firearms instructor and armorer I bought a lot of guns from different companies after attending armorer classes (discounted armorer pricing), or learning of some interesting model run. My primary focus in choosing guns to buy was predicated upon what I thought would serve me well for off-duty carry. With the exception of that one pistol that was designed around 12rd mags (a .40), those guns included 5-shot revolvers and assorted pistols with 6, 7, 8, 9 & 10rd magazine capacities.

I can appreciate the capacity of double stack magazines for defensive/service pistol roles, but I'm not what you might call an "ardent proponent" of them to the exclusion of many other good quality handguns having less capacity.

 

[Hangingrock]

The latest new acceptable minimum capacity appears to be (10) rounds. Yes that's what I've read in firearms periodicals. No one articulates how this premise came about other than expert so-so stated that. I don't even know if the expert is an expert by experience on the premise. The conventional wisdom is your S.O.L with less than then the theoretical ten round capacity. I'm old in my seventh decade the last gunfight I was in was during my USMC days utilizing a 1911A1 (7) round capacity that was manufactured by Ithaca in the year of my birth. I don't claim to be an expert but someone of limited experience.

 

[AK103K]

See, this makes me think capacity isn't so much the issue as caliber.
I've had this idea lately that police might be better served with carbines as their standard issue weapons. I am not a cop and I don't know if that's reasonable at all, but a small carbine with a more powerful round seems like it would be very useful.

I saw the guy close the distance with the knife, any idea if the officer sustained any injuries? How many times did the cop actually score a hit?

Capacity and sustainability of fire are the issue, not so much caliber. At least with handguns of a reasonable caliber. Plenty of cases of 45acp taking full high cap mags with reloads out there if you look.

A long gun in a rifle caliber, is always a better choice, but cops here dont get out and walk around with a long gun too much here in the states. The whole point of the handgun is to always have the gun on you.

What videos like the above show you is, you dont get those perfect shots you get in practice on a static range and target. You get what you get, and you have to try and deal with it. About all you can do, is to put rounds into where you best think you might get a result (there is really only one "kill switch too), and keep doing it until you get one. Shoot them to the ground and anchor them.

And that takes exactly what it takes. No more, no less. You might drop them with one lucky round, or you might have to do a mag change and dump the next half a mag. Who knows?

You can practice for this though and in a couple of ways. One, you do as much shooting as you can on "realistic", anatomically correct targets (knowing human anatomy is also a big help), while you move and shoot in practice, so youre at least accustomed to shooting that way. Much of that type shooting is usually without sights too. That takes care of two thirds of the problem right there, and its a big help.

And two, Airsoft FoF type training, with a buddy or two, where you can actually try and shoot each other, or try not to get shot. Everything changes when your target is trying to shoot you as hard as youre trying to shoot them.

 

[Kleanbore]

What videos like the above show you is, you dont get those perfect shots you get in practice on a static range and target. You get what you get,

Yep.

And that takes exactly what it takes. No more, no less. You might drop them with one lucky round, or you might have to do a mag change and dump the next half a mag. Who knows?

Yep.

 

[WrongHanded]

Regarding this "spray and pray" allegation:

I used to think that way back when I carried a 6 shot .357 mag. But after I started imagine scenarios where I didn't win, it became clear that I needed to rethink things.

Now I carry either 13 or 15 rounds (depending on the gun). Not so I can blast it all away in the hopes I might hit my attackers vitals if only I can put enough lead in the air. It's so that (hopefully) when the dust settles, I'm still standing and my gun is not empty.

 

[Rexster]

Regarding the video, in post #83, well, in 1993, I shot a bad guy, just beyond arm’s length away, as he moved toward me. He had a knife, chambered for a thrust, in his left hand, and an SL-20 light, snatched from one of my fellow officers, in his right hand, held high. At that moment in time, had my first shot not absolutely changed his channel, I would not have needed more rounds in the gun, as much as I would have needed footwork, and hands-on/contact-distance skills.

After this, I sought extra-curricular training in foot-work, and blade training. I did not feel a need to carry more rounds of ammunition.

I was free to switch to a double-column-mag autoloader, as soon as I could buy one, and get to the PD range to shoot a qual. Instead, I kept carrying .357 duty revolvers, as my duty handguns, for about four more years, at which time I switched to 1911 duty pistols. (I did finally switch to double-column-mag duty pistols, in 2002, but it was because the then-mandated duty holster inhibited my ability to get a proper grip on a 1911, in a way that allow consistent operation of the grip safety. By then, I had to choose one of four approved duty pistols, all of them .40 autos. The rules changed, again, in 2015, so I actually finished my LE career, qual’ed to carry either a 1911 or a 9mm Glock as “primary,” while on duty.)

I still tend to carry GP100 revolvers, with full-pressure 125-grain loads, much of the time. At other times, I gravitate toward full-sized, all-steel 1911 pistols. SP101 five-shooters are nice secondary armament.

On foot-work, think about it like this: Does the matador, in the bull-fighting arena, hold the red fabric in front of him, and then remain planted, stationary, behind it, as the bull charges?

 

[Old Dog]

Does the matador, in the bull-fighting arena, hold the red fabric in front of him, and then remain planted, stationary, behind it, as the bull charges?

It's not the red cape that kills the bull, it's the sword (after the picadores have already stabbed the bull multiple times to weaken it).

I'm pretty sure most of us here are aware that practicing shooting on the move is crucial, some modicum of hand-to-hand fighting skill is vital, and that learning how to defend against edged weapons can be useful (at least for the law enforcement officer). I have had all this sort of training over the years, all things considered though, and based on my experiences, I would prefer to have more rounds on tap and not be limited to five or six. Better yet, I'd prefer always to have at least one or three or more of my brothers (or sisters) with guns backing me up.

I remain in awe of my fellow THR members who are clearly more capable and skilled, despite being handicapped with low-capacity weapons, than those of us who've indicated a preference for higher-capacity.

 

[Rexster]

It's not the red cape that kills the bull, it's the sword (after the picadores have already stabbed the bull multiple times to weaken it).

I'm pretty sure most of us here are aware that practicing shooting on the move is crucial, some modicum of hand-to-hand fighting skill is vital, and that learning how to defend against edged weapons can be useful (at least for the law enforcement officer). I have had all this sort of training over the years, all things considered though, and based on my experiences, I would prefer to have more rounds on tap and not be limited to five or six. Better yet, I'd prefer always to have at least one or three or more of my brothers (or sisters) with guns backing me up.

True, the cape is a decoy, but the matador is exercising very skillful and well-timed foot-work, too.

A better example of footwork, might be that moment in the movie “Troy,” when Achilles, as acted by Brad Pitt, defeats the giant-sized opponent, in single combat, in the scene where a champion, from each side, decides the issue of whether Menelaus gets to add yet another city-state to his alliance. This can be done, with a firearm, as one passes one’s opponent. (And, for that matter, the same principle can be applied if one is without a handgun OR a sword.)

It is not that I am in love with the idea of having only five or six rounds. No matter what my “primary” may be, at any given time, I am likely to have “Gun Junior” on or about my person, too. Long, long ago, in a decade far, far away, I finished a busy duty shift, arrived at home, unholstered my duty handgun, and heard something rattling-about, inside. Yes, indeed; two pieces of what had been one mainspring.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

An example where low capacity would be lacking.



View attachment 950758

I counted 7 shots, and one stoppage. With 9, I'd still be in the game.

 

[Spats McGee]

I went with 'Frequently,' because I do occasionally carry a 5-shot LCR. About 95% of the time, though, I'm right around 25 rounds total. What's in the Shield and 2 spare mags.

 

[AK103K]

I counted 7 shots, and one stoppage. With 9, I'd still be in the game.

But how do you know that? That was "her" shooting, not yours.

Ive posted an old Ayoob File from American Handgunner here before, that dealt with a cop and a bad guy in a gun fight at basically point blank range (5-6 "feet"), and both emptied their guns, both 45acps, a Glock 21 (cop) I believe, and a SIG P220 (bad guy). Both emptied their guns, the bad guy got one hit, the cop something like 7. He actually reloaded at the end. Both survived too. If I can find it, Ill repost the link.

The point is, every case is its own case. You cant assume, that because someone else only needed "x" number of rounds in "their" gunfight, thats all you will need in yours. Reality is, you might need one round, or you might need every round on you, and anything else you can scrounge out of the car or kitchen drawer when you run out.

Heres that link....

https://fmgpublications.ipaperus.com/FMGPublications/AmericanHandgunner/AHMJ11/


Starts at pg.32.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

But how do you know that? That was "her" shooting, not yours.

Why was the link posted? So we could imagine we were in that situation.

Now without personal experience, all we can do is look at what others have done. Personally, I've only been in two fights with handguns, and in each case needed only one round.
[/QUOTE]

 

[AK103K]

Why was the link posted? So we could imagine we were in that situation.

Now without personal experience, all we can do is look at what others have done. Personally, I've only been in two fights with handguns, and in each case needed only one round.

[/QUOTE]
Simply to show, you never know what you might get, and no matter who you are. That was yet another "individual" case, and that one took the cop, everything he had in his gun.

By your logic, if we go by his story, we would all need at least 14 rounds. By your story, we would only need one. Whats the next one going to be? You get what you get, and get to deal with it with what you brought along. Simple as that.

What you can do, is do your best to be as prepared as possible, for as much as you can. Carry a realistic gun and learn to use it, beyond the basics.

 

[jar]

What we can know is that the vast majority of us will never serve a warrant, never try to make an arrest, never respond to a domestic disturbance call, never make a traffic stop, never attempt to stop an active shooter incident, never attempt to take down someone wearing body armor and never get out of a car to face some knife welding attacker.

 

[Kleanbore]

What we can know is that the vast majority of us will never serve a warrant, never try to make an arrest, never respond to a domestic disturbance call, never make a traffic stop, never attempt to stop an active shooter incident, never attempt to take down someone wearing body armor and never get out of a car to face some knife welding attacker

Yes, and should any ot us ever have ti fire a gun in self defense, that statement would be entirely meaningless.

 

[Charlie98]

I remain in awe of my fellow THR members who are clearly more capable and skilled,

Your avatar only needed one bullet...