C-grunt
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Will a 30 carbine penetrate soft body armor?
M1 Carbine w/Softpoints vs. AR with your Favorite Ammo
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Deaf Smith
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Yes. 1600 fps is about the threshold.
Deaf
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Deaf Smith
Member
True!
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Deaf
kBob
Member
c-grunt,
Yes, that is why early on some body armor outfits offered "C30" hard plates now mostly replaced by "K47." 7.62x39 was rather thin on the ground in the US when modern soft body armor came along.
Guy I used to know had a couple or six of the WWII aircrew armor sets like used late in the war by gunners and such. It had light plates of I believe steel with a ceramic coating like a sink basin on them. It was intended to stop "flak" fragments and not firearms. However back in those pre PC days a lot of LE Organizations used them for external body armor. He had chosen individual plates to shoot at in the vest. They stopped everything from .38Special down , most 9x19mm and some .357. .30 Carbine made it out the old fliberglass back leaving a clean hole in the plate.
Modern body armor is a whole different animal than the pre Kevlar stuff, but hard and fast beats those with no plates that are not just plain silly thick.
Lots of things can make vest ratings over optimistic. Age. Condition from attempts at washing. And just plain surprises from the gun/bullet doing the damage. Second Chance use to make what they called Z9 armor that was supposed to stop 9x19 FMJ from SMGs or Pistol Carbines. I shot through the sample swath they sent me following their directions using a Ruger Blackhawk and FMJ 9x19mm I had laying about. Turns out the ammo was Czech, gave unusually high muzzle velocities, and was considered AP by many folks. Fortunately this was before state and federal laws got passed on AP in handguns, but being concerned about pressures I got rid of all I had left. Say all you will about no one loading 9x19 hot for SMGs, but this stuff made an MP-40 cycle awfully fast. The vest swath did stop Canadian WWII FMJ fine.
-kBob
Yes, that is why early on some body armor outfits offered "C30" hard plates now mostly replaced by "K47." 7.62x39 was rather thin on the ground in the US when modern soft body armor came along.
Guy I used to know had a couple or six of the WWII aircrew armor sets like used late in the war by gunners and such. It had light plates of I believe steel with a ceramic coating like a sink basin on them. It was intended to stop "flak" fragments and not firearms. However back in those pre PC days a lot of LE Organizations used them for external body armor. He had chosen individual plates to shoot at in the vest. They stopped everything from .38Special down , most 9x19mm and some .357. .30 Carbine made it out the old fliberglass back leaving a clean hole in the plate.
Modern body armor is a whole different animal than the pre Kevlar stuff, but hard and fast beats those with no plates that are not just plain silly thick.
Lots of things can make vest ratings over optimistic. Age. Condition from attempts at washing. And just plain surprises from the gun/bullet doing the damage. Second Chance use to make what they called Z9 armor that was supposed to stop 9x19 FMJ from SMGs or Pistol Carbines. I shot through the sample swath they sent me following their directions using a Ruger Blackhawk and FMJ 9x19mm I had laying about. Turns out the ammo was Czech, gave unusually high muzzle velocities, and was considered AP by many folks. Fortunately this was before state and federal laws got passed on AP in handguns, but being concerned about pressures I got rid of all I had left. Say all you will about no one loading 9x19 hot for SMGs, but this stuff made an MP-40 cycle awfully fast. The vest swath did stop Canadian WWII FMJ fine.
-kBob
justin22885
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heres something interesting.. take 7.62x25 tokarev or 7.63 mauser, these can be made using 5.56/.223 brass... aah, but this brass can hold up to 62,000 PSI.. so load it up to 55,000 PSI.. what do you get then?.. a 7.62x25 capable of pushing a .30 cal bullet at equal velocities to the .30 carbine, however, remains small enough to load into a pistol
so.. if youre not sure between the 30 carbine and the 5.56, combine the two into the above abomination, and get .30 carbine ballistics out of a shortened .223/5.56 case, and if you have a strong enough handgun you can also use it in a sidearm
so.. if youre not sure between the 30 carbine and the 5.56, combine the two into the above abomination, and get .30 carbine ballistics out of a shortened .223/5.56 case, and if you have a strong enough handgun you can also use it in a sidearm
Sistema1927
Member
Use what you got and what you are comfortable with.
The first 3 guns in my (left open at night in the bedroom) gun safe are an AR15, an M1 Carbine, and a 12ga pump. If I need to take care of "things that go bump in the night" the AR will be in my hands, the M1 in my wife's hands, and the riot gun as a backup.
The first 3 guns in my (left open at night in the bedroom) gun safe are an AR15, an M1 Carbine, and a 12ga pump. If I need to take care of "things that go bump in the night" the AR will be in my hands, the M1 in my wife's hands, and the riot gun as a backup.
I have both M1 Carbine and AR-15. Like them both, alot.
If I had to choose, and I knew I wouldn't need to shoot beyond 100 yards, I'd go with the M1 carbine. If I might need to shoot past 100 yards, I think I'd rather have the AR.
For everybody talking about the better mag capacity on the ARs, I think you're forgetting about the 30 round M2 carbine mags, 30 rounds.
If I had to choose, and I knew I wouldn't need to shoot beyond 100 yards, I'd go with the M1 carbine. If I might need to shoot past 100 yards, I think I'd rather have the AR.
For everybody talking about the better mag capacity on the ARs, I think you're forgetting about the 30 round M2 carbine mags, 30 rounds.
Flynt
Member
How about over penetration?
I have both guns. If I ever have to defend the manor, range will be measured in a few feet, so I'm more concerned about going through walls and killing a family member or even a neighbor. I switched from a pump shot gun to a suppressed 11" AR pistol with light, but I'd replace that with my carbine if I thought the 30 cal was less likely to penetrate walls.
I have both guns. If I ever have to defend the manor, range will be measured in a few feet, so I'm more concerned about going through walls and killing a family member or even a neighbor. I switched from a pump shot gun to a suppressed 11" AR pistol with light, but I'd replace that with my carbine if I thought the 30 cal was less likely to penetrate walls.
sixgunner455
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AR. 5.56 loads exist that are more likely to break up in walls, reducing danger to innocents in other rooms.
AR. All of my CQB training with a long gun was with one version or another of the M16 and M4.
AR. A new, basic AR can be had just about anywhere. M1 carbine, can't remember the last one I saw for sale in any kind of reasonable condition.
AR. If I want to put an optic or a suppressor on it, or put a different caliber upper on it for some reason, or put a .22 adapter in it, it's more flexible and easier to do those things to it.
I've built two.
AR. All of my CQB training with a long gun was with one version or another of the M16 and M4.
AR. A new, basic AR can be had just about anywhere. M1 carbine, can't remember the last one I saw for sale in any kind of reasonable condition.
AR. If I want to put an optic or a suppressor on it, or put a different caliber upper on it for some reason, or put a .22 adapter in it, it's more flexible and easier to do those things to it.
I've built two.
All personal choices, Ar or M1 Carbine , etc will do the job in a home PD. Comparing ballistics is pretty moot. If AR ballistics was that important then we should not have most pistols for home PD. I feel comfortable with a 22LR for home defense. Yes I have 9 1911 from 9mm to 10mm. Have 454s, 44mag, 45Colt, 9mm and have 3 ARs in 5.56, 3 in 6.8SPC and even an AR10. Would have no issue with my M1 Carbine either.
I didn't forget about them, but actual GI 30rd mags cost a fortune and are impossible to find. The knock-offs and inexpensive ones are hit or miss for reliability. I'll take 15 for sure with GI mags in my M1 carbine and of course the 30 rd AR mags are cheap and reliable.
Now anyone with 30 round M1 mags they'd be willing to bet their life on can take capacity advantage off the table for the AR.
I can't imagine any HD situation would matter 15 vs 30 rds. Zombies, sure.
Strange Bob
Member
Beat me to it with the 300 BO comment.
chipcom
member
AK-47...cuz if bad guys are within 100 yards of my home, I like to teach them difference between cover and concealment. ;-)
But given the choice between the M1 Carbine and an AR, I'd take the M1 Carbine just cuz it was my first love. ;-)
But given the choice between the M1 Carbine and an AR, I'd take the M1 Carbine just cuz it was my first love. ;-)
I have both M-1s and AR-15s but for short range home defense I prefer the M-1 as the soft point rounds are effective and in a pinch I can do more damage with the butt stock on a M-1 than the adjustable stock on my ARs. I do use the ARs for varmints and homestead protection. Long range problems are taken care of with .30-06 or .308.
Janos Dracwlya
Member
I have both, though I have only had the carbine for a couple of months and haven't had much opportunity to test it out as yet. Still, it's light and handy, and the one 30-round after-market magazine I have for it has been reliable so far.
For most folks, if your M1 isn't beat to Hell, and is reliable with your chosen magazines and ammunition, I can't see that you are giving up much in practical terms. Energy is a little less, but still very respectable. Range is a lot less, but in and around the house, that's not an issue either. It will do the job and do it well.
One thing that confuses me is when so many people reject the idea of getting one or another gun simply because of a lack of accessories. I guess I am just different, but, if I want a gun, I want it "as is" for the most part. I don't make lots of changes to it. Sure, AR's have the benefit of being easily built, serviced and modified by the end-user, and American industry has provided a plethora of - sometimes outright strange (A crossbow? Sure! A .50 BMG single-shot? You bet) - modifications, but unless the user has some really special needs, it's usually just gilding a lily.
Another thing is that, while I enjoy my AR, especially being able to drop-in the CMMG .22LR conversion and shoot it anywhere, AR's, despite their customizability, have become so common that nobody seems to want anything else. I'd love to see some more options to fill that niche. For example, maybe a version of the Remington 7400 that takes AR magazines? Maybe it wouldn't be profitable, but I can dream.
For most folks, if your M1 isn't beat to Hell, and is reliable with your chosen magazines and ammunition, I can't see that you are giving up much in practical terms. Energy is a little less, but still very respectable. Range is a lot less, but in and around the house, that's not an issue either. It will do the job and do it well.
One thing that confuses me is when so many people reject the idea of getting one or another gun simply because of a lack of accessories. I guess I am just different, but, if I want a gun, I want it "as is" for the most part. I don't make lots of changes to it. Sure, AR's have the benefit of being easily built, serviced and modified by the end-user, and American industry has provided a plethora of - sometimes outright strange (A crossbow? Sure! A .50 BMG single-shot? You bet) - modifications, but unless the user has some really special needs, it's usually just gilding a lily.
Another thing is that, while I enjoy my AR, especially being able to drop-in the CMMG .22LR conversion and shoot it anywhere, AR's, despite their customizability, have become so common that nobody seems to want anything else. I'd love to see some more options to fill that niche. For example, maybe a version of the Remington 7400 that takes AR magazines? Maybe it wouldn't be profitable, but I can dream.
I've had AR-15's for over 20 years, and currently have a Colt M4/le6920. Love it. Very accurate, 100% reliable. Recently, I acquired and Inland USGI M1 Carbine. It is in very good shape for a 72 year old rifle, but I cleaned it up internally, and took it to the range. I have long arms, so it is a bit short for me, but I can get used to it. It shoots reliably, and reasonably accurately but not close to the AR.
For indoor use, I would take the M1 as the muzzle blast and noise is much less. I won't shoot an AR indoors without hearing protection. Outdoors it would be the AR hands down.
For indoor use, I would take the M1 as the muzzle blast and noise is much less. I won't shoot an AR indoors without hearing protection. Outdoors it would be the AR hands down.
Theohazard
Member
This. "Stopping power" doesn't have any real meaning, and "knockdown power" definitely doesn't exist; bullets don't knock people down, not even full-powered shotgun slugs.JShirley said:
But I understood the OP was talking about which one is more effective against the human body, and I suppose the edge would probably go to the 5.56/.223 since it has 20% more energy than a 30 Carbine round. But both are more than adequate in that regard, so that shouldn't be the deciding factor.
Another issue for some people: Less wall penetration. The edge should go to the AR in this category also, since it's well-documented that a lighter, faster hollow-point .223 bullet will fragment faster and penetrate walls less than a heavier, slower hollow-point 30 caliber bullet like the M1 carbine fires. But I haven't seen any tests specifically comparing those two exact rounds, so that's purely an educated guess. And neither would be safe to fire through walls; as much as a .223 hollow-point limits wall penetration, the bullet fragments still can easily pass through several walls.
Sure, the AR probably beats a .30 Carbine in most categories, but I'd consider both to be great HD options. I say pick the one you feel most familiar with, because that can make all the difference under stress.
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