MD_Willington
Member
This is in an email I just received:
MD Willington said:
The Reply said:
WA State AFL issue, FBI "fumbling the ball"
- Thread starter MD_Willington
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Gray Peterson
Member
Ok, where did the reply come from?
MD_Willington
Member
An assistant to my local Rep. emailed it to another fellow, I have the info at work, I'm posting this from home ATM.
I'm kind of frazzled from work right now.. what can we gleam from the reply...
I'm kind of frazzled from work right now.. what can we gleam from the reply...
we have the right under federal law to own firearms , that is clearly provided under the constitution as with any natural born citizen , what is still unclear is , can the state discriminate on racial grounds and infringe that right by licencing ? they are not denying us the right to own , if we can get a licence , but are they even allowed to licence us in the first place ? THIS is the big question .
Ok I need to know where I can find the transcripts of the hearing where WA state swore this licence into law. Ive looked about but cant find it yet.
It needs to say something like ;
"Under the provisions of the "patriot act" , section blah paragraph blah blah , we motion to enact said law on grounds that we believe legal resident aliens to be a threat to state and national security , under the law of "strict scrutiny" as we have overwhelming proof that said residents are an evil no good bunch of hoodlums "
If it doesnt say anything like this , then we have all we need to send a letter off to the DOJ stating that under "color of law" the state has enacted a racially profiling and discriminatory , unconstitutional law , they should pick up the case and make the state drop it .
The state are going to have to send a gopher down to the archives with a big black sharpie and cross the whole AFL licencing law off the books .
As soon as I have this and a quote from the WA DOL as to how many people are currently affected by this , I will draft out a letter and post it up here for approval , comments , additions etc then pop it in my wifes hand to post (she works for the USPS) so that I know it will be sent .
It needs to say something like ;
"Under the provisions of the "patriot act" , section blah paragraph blah blah , we motion to enact said law on grounds that we believe legal resident aliens to be a threat to state and national security , under the law of "strict scrutiny" as we have overwhelming proof that said residents are an evil no good bunch of hoodlums "
If it doesnt say anything like this , then we have all we need to send a letter off to the DOJ stating that under "color of law" the state has enacted a racially profiling and discriminatory , unconstitutional law , they should pick up the case and make the state drop it .
The state are going to have to send a gopher down to the archives with a big black sharpie and cross the whole AFL licencing law off the books .
As soon as I have this and a quote from the WA DOL as to how many people are currently affected by this , I will draft out a letter and post it up here for approval , comments , additions etc then pop it in my wifes hand to post (she works for the USPS) so that I know it will be sent .
the only reference to the passing of the law is that it passed as a "reference" whatever that means ????? from what I can make out it means that it was in a list that was put out and it was just passed without being discussed .
here is the reference ;
8.67.010 Statutes adopted by reference. The following statutes,
including all future amendments, additions, or deletions, are adopted by
reference:
Section 8. That Title 8 of the Tacoma Municipal Code is hereby amended
by adding thereto a new chapter, to be known and designated as Chapter 8.67, to
read as follows:
Chapter 8.67
FIREARMS
Sections:
8.67.010 Statutes adopted by reference.
8.67.020 Possession of firearms prohibited in publicly owned stadiums
and convention centers.
8.67.010 Statutes adopted by reference. The following statutes,
including all future amendments, additions, or deletions, are adopted by
reference:
RCW:
9.41.010 Terms defined.
9.41.050 Carrying pistol.
9.41.060 Exception to restriction on carrying pistol.
9.41.070 Concealed pistol license – Application – Fee – Renewal.
9.41.075 Concealed pistol license – Revocation.
9.41.090 Dealer deliveries regulated – Hold on delivery.
9.41.094 Waiver of confidentiality.
9.41.0975 Officials and agencies – Immunity, writ of mandamus.
9.41.098 Forfeiture of firearms, order by courts – Return to owner –
Confiscation by law enforcement officer.
9.41.100 Dealers to be licensed.
9.41.120 Firearms as loan security.
9.41.140 Alteration of identifying marks – Exceptions.
9.41.170 Alien’s license to carry firearms – Exceptions.
9.41.220 Unlawful firearms and parts contraband.
9.41.230 Aiming or discharging firearms.
9.41.240 Possession of pistol by person from eighteen to twenty-one.
9.41.250 Dangerous weapons – Evidence – Penalty (subsection (1) is NOT
adopted).
9.41.260 Dangerous exhibitions.
9.41.270 Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm, carrying,
exhibiting, displaying or drawing unlawful – Penalty – Exceptions.
-11-
ord10947clean.doc-JW/lad
9.41.280 Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities – Penalty –
Exceptions (subsection (4) is NOT adopted).
9.41.300 Weapons prohibited in certain places – Local laws and ordinances
– Exceptions – Penalty.
9.41.800 Surrender of weapons or licenses – Prohibition on future
possession or licensing.
9.41.810 Penalty.
70.74.010 Definitions – Washington State Explosives Act.
70.74.295 Abandonment of explosives.
70.74.310 Gas bombs, explosives, stink bombs, etc.
77.15.460 Loaded firearm in vehicle – Unlawful use or possession – Penalty.
I can find no actual hearings on it as yet , I have a feeling that it just passed on the back of a bunch of other stuff
here is the reference ;
8.67.010 Statutes adopted by reference. The following statutes,
including all future amendments, additions, or deletions, are adopted by
reference:
Section 8. That Title 8 of the Tacoma Municipal Code is hereby amended
by adding thereto a new chapter, to be known and designated as Chapter 8.67, to
read as follows:
Chapter 8.67
FIREARMS
Sections:
8.67.010 Statutes adopted by reference.
8.67.020 Possession of firearms prohibited in publicly owned stadiums
and convention centers.
8.67.010 Statutes adopted by reference. The following statutes,
including all future amendments, additions, or deletions, are adopted by
reference:
RCW:
9.41.010 Terms defined.
9.41.050 Carrying pistol.
9.41.060 Exception to restriction on carrying pistol.
9.41.070 Concealed pistol license – Application – Fee – Renewal.
9.41.075 Concealed pistol license – Revocation.
9.41.090 Dealer deliveries regulated – Hold on delivery.
9.41.094 Waiver of confidentiality.
9.41.0975 Officials and agencies – Immunity, writ of mandamus.
9.41.098 Forfeiture of firearms, order by courts – Return to owner –
Confiscation by law enforcement officer.
9.41.100 Dealers to be licensed.
9.41.120 Firearms as loan security.
9.41.140 Alteration of identifying marks – Exceptions.
9.41.170 Alien’s license to carry firearms – Exceptions.
9.41.220 Unlawful firearms and parts contraband.
9.41.230 Aiming or discharging firearms.
9.41.240 Possession of pistol by person from eighteen to twenty-one.
9.41.250 Dangerous weapons – Evidence – Penalty (subsection (1) is NOT
adopted).
9.41.260 Dangerous exhibitions.
9.41.270 Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm, carrying,
exhibiting, displaying or drawing unlawful – Penalty – Exceptions.
-11-
ord10947clean.doc-JW/lad
9.41.280 Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities – Penalty –
Exceptions (subsection (4) is NOT adopted).
9.41.300 Weapons prohibited in certain places – Local laws and ordinances
– Exceptions – Penalty.
9.41.800 Surrender of weapons or licenses – Prohibition on future
possession or licensing.
9.41.810 Penalty.
70.74.010 Definitions – Washington State Explosives Act.
70.74.295 Abandonment of explosives.
70.74.310 Gas bombs, explosives, stink bombs, etc.
77.15.460 Loaded firearm in vehicle – Unlawful use or possession – Penalty.
I can find no actual hearings on it as yet , I have a feeling that it just passed on the back of a bunch of other stuff
Through all my searches I cannot find when and where this bill, statute, law whatever the darn thing is called, was first enacted , I can also not find any cases where this law has been upheld with a conviction of a felony apart from in conjunction with some other crime (drugs , assault or the like ) no otherwise legal people have been charged with just this felony
I'm beginning to wonder if it even exists , or if its just one of those laws that if you get caught doing something else they can tag this one on .
But on a lighter note I have found out that IF I were so inclined and I stress IF..... I could legaly here in the state of WA have sex with an animal !!!
Good job I'm not into that !
I just want to poke holes in paper !
I'm beginning to wonder if it even exists , or if its just one of those laws that if you get caught doing something else they can tag this one on .
But on a lighter note I have found out that IF I were so inclined and I stress IF..... I could legaly here in the state of WA have sex with an animal !!!
Good job I'm not into that !I just want to poke holes in paper !
MD_Willington
Member
Post #82, I'll pass on a reply there.. eww~!
Posts above that. Looks good, keep digging.
I'll see if the person that sent me the reply I posted can look up when the AFL was enacted.
Thanks waverace !
Posts above that. Looks good, keep digging.
I'll see if the person that sent me the reply I posted can look up when the AFL was enacted.
Thanks waverace !
Got a reply from representative Ross Hunter and he confirms they are not planning any legislation until 2009
he also states he is Finance Chairman and does not look after firearms issues as such
i think he is a little tired of the subject
He does mention people being available for witness testimony which is a long winded load of garbage for an administrative change
I am still 'finding my feet' here in Washington and trying to figure out whether it is backward or enlightened and modern
I just got a letter saying that I can't stop the UK tax on my UK pension until I am a U.S. Citizen - so there is another reason to get citizenship eventually - in the meantime, should I remain in the twilight zone with restricted rights ? No, I think we should keep trying for a solution
he also states he is Finance Chairman and does not look after firearms issues as such
i think he is a little tired of the subject
He does mention people being available for witness testimony which is a long winded load of garbage for an administrative change
I am still 'finding my feet' here in Washington and trying to figure out whether it is backward or enlightened and modern
I just got a letter saying that I can't stop the UK tax on my UK pension until I am a U.S. Citizen - so there is another reason to get citizenship eventually - in the meantime, should I remain in the twilight zone with restricted rights ? No, I think we should keep trying for a solution
MD_Willington
Member
Lonnie Wilson:
The reply was from a fellow named John Gower. My Rep. Joe Schmick had his aid Pam forward my question to John.
Not sure if that helps.
The reply was from a fellow named John Gower. My Rep. Joe Schmick had his aid Pam forward my question to John.
Not sure if that helps.
I've dealt with Pam , when the gov. was messing me about with my I130 we contacted her and she put in some good words for us and got it sorted shes pretty clueless but she does care . The gov. gave her the runaround something chronic and we had to educate her on the finer points of not accepting BS answers ,we finally got the gov. to admit they made a mistake and the I130 passed straight away (only a year late !) now I just need them to get on and send me my work permit and green card (thats only 6 months late at this point) as you can see the gov. works slooowwwwly :banghead:
,we finally got the gov. to admit they made a mistake and the I130 passed straight away (only a year late !) now I just need them to get on and send me my work permit and green card (thats only 6 months late at this point) as you can see the gov. works slooowwwwly :banghead:Still cant find anything previous to 2006 and there it clearly states that it is a class c felony for NON immigrants to carry or possess a firearm without first obtaining an AFL ,the non citizen part seems to have been thrown in purely on the information lists on gun laws , It was NOT part of the original bill !!
I'll keep looking but this all looks like a clerical error from the start .
I'll keep looking but this all looks like a clerical error from the start .
MD_Willington
Member
waverace, call the BATFE regarding this, try the Seattle office and then a national office.. see what the response is...
compare the two responses...
MD
compare the two responses...
MD
as if there was any doubt , here is a test question and the answer from the INS website;
so this is a federal govt website with a federal take on the constitution and bill of rights
this is the BATFE take on restrictions of firearms ownership as pertains to aliens ;
so this is a federal govt website with a federal take on which aliens are not allowed to own firearms.
these are quotes from the WA state constitution ;
so basics are the state constitution reaffirms the citizens individual rights to bear arms ,
it says that any rights within its constitution will not deny the peoples rights ,
no law will be passed without it being put forward as a bill ,
and any bills that are passed will not be ammended to any degree outside of the scope of the original bill without a new bill being submitted .
So ........
there is no Federal reason for us not to keep and bear arms .
there is no state constitutional reason for us not to keep and bear arms
they have not as far as I can find , passed any bill stating that it is illegal for a non citizen to keep and bear arms .
all bills that have been passed that I can find relate to non immigrants , both federal and state
the whole "it is illegal for a non citizen to own a firearm without first obtaining a AFL " is purely a case of the wrong word used when writing the laws out , they are not law until passed in a bill worded as such .
Defence rests its case ....
so this is a federal govt website with a federal take on the constitution and bill of rights
this is the BATFE take on restrictions of firearms ownership as pertains to aliens ;
so this is a federal govt website with a federal take on which aliens are not allowed to own firearms.
these are quotes from the WA state constitution ;
so basics are the state constitution reaffirms the citizens individual rights to bear arms ,
it says that any rights within its constitution will not deny the peoples rights ,
no law will be passed without it being put forward as a bill ,
and any bills that are passed will not be ammended to any degree outside of the scope of the original bill without a new bill being submitted .
So ........
there is no Federal reason for us not to keep and bear arms .
there is no state constitutional reason for us not to keep and bear arms
they have not as far as I can find , passed any bill stating that it is illegal for a non citizen to keep and bear arms .
all bills that have been passed that I can find relate to non immigrants , both federal and state
the whole "it is illegal for a non citizen to own a firearm without first obtaining a AFL " is purely a case of the wrong word used when writing the laws out , they are not law until passed in a bill worded as such .
Defence rests its case ....
MD_Willington
Member
If you don't mind, I'd like to send that post to John Gower et al.
They would not directly answer my question, as I think what you pointed out above is what I already knew and .GOV.WA does not want to deal with it as they know they are in violation of it.
They would not directly answer my question, as I think what you pointed out above is what I already knew and .GOV.WA does not want to deal with it as they know they are in violation of it.
"So ........ there is no Federal reason for us not to keep and bear arms."
I'm not up on the immigration status of the "us." Or the isssue, not being from Washington. Is Washington jamming up aliens lawfully admitted with immigrant status?
I'm not up on the immigration status of the "us." Or the isssue, not being from Washington. Is Washington jamming up aliens lawfully admitted with immigrant status?
Eric "us" = legal permanent resident aliens and yes Wa state is trying to racially segregate us from the rest of the US by making us apply for licences to own a firearm , which as it turns out they cant issue anyway because of a clerical blunder , on top of which theyve never actually passed a law which prohibits non citizens from owning a firearm which they couldnt do anyway because it would be against .....
the US constitution and the bill of rights ,
the WA state constitution and bill of rights,
the immigration act of 1957,
the patriot act,
BAFTE regulations ,
the brady laws ,
the supreme court ,
anything Ive missed guys ?
you get the picture ,some dufus somewhere screwed up and its time to put it right .
the US constitution and the bill of rights ,
the WA state constitution and bill of rights,
the immigration act of 1957,
the patriot act,
BAFTE regulations ,
the brady laws ,
the supreme court ,
anything Ive missed guys ?
you get the picture ,some dufus somewhere screwed up and its time to put it right .
MD_Willington
Member
Erik said:
I'm not following "jamming". There are quite a few LEGAL permanent residents in WA, and there are quite a few less than legals, especially in Seattle as it is a "sanctuary city"...
OT: FEMA can and will deny help to "Sanctuary Cities"... for Seattle that would really suck... volcanoes, earthquakes and tsunamis "oh my"...
I work with quite a few legal permanent and some non-immigrant aliens, and they are from countries where civillians are banned outright from owning personal firearms, so being that these people are very intelligent, and naturally inquisitive about machinery, they are always asking "when are you going shooting next" and I unfortunately have to reply, "we cannot go shooting as the State is denying us the means to do so"...
Also, most of the engineering positions where I work are required to have background checks done if you are hired, as we do provide to GSA/Federal .GOV...
LOL - I get background checked for everything ! Even get to pee in a cup for drug screening every once in a while.
MD_Willington
Member
Quite honestly, my local Sheriff seems to busy to worry about the retarded AFL laws, I mean, I just saw him at "fishing kids", I take my son every year...
He also approved my carry permit PDQ, I applied for that at closing time on a Friday, and by the next Wednesday morning my CPL was in the mail...
Bottom line, my local Sheriff knows I'm an okay guy...
Too bad that isn't good enough for DOL... but still the laws as pointed out by waverace above just go to prove that WA State.GOV is up to some shenanigans.
He also approved my carry permit PDQ, I applied for that at closing time on a Friday, and by the next Wednesday morning my CPL was in the mail...
Bottom line, my local Sheriff knows I'm an okay guy...
Too bad that isn't good enough for DOL... but still the laws as pointed out by waverace above just go to prove that WA State.GOV is up to some shenanigans.
Still havent been able to call ATF yet will do it on monday , but did go to my local cop shop to get their take on it , they were only aware of the RCW (revised code of WA) as it is written and gave me the number for ATF in seattle , they also suggested that I go to the local library to look up the law, which I did , in fact I had 3 librarians try and find the bill where it states that "It is illegal for a non citizen to possess a firearm " they couldnt find it either . They pointed me in the direction of the Law library at the state capitol in olympia , they have a website which I will check out later . failing that I will go to olympia on monday morning and try to get some answers straight from the donkeys mouth .
If I'm right and this is just a rewording of the bill then it should be an easy fix , just send a memo to all depts to say ," where it states citizen read immigrant ". I can see how a mistake could be made if someone did not understand Immigration speak "NON IMMIGRANT" to the untrained could mean anyone who is not an immigrant , this could include a citizen !what it actually means though is non PERMANANT immigrant (migrant workers , visitors for sporting events , students etc) so someone who didnt know that could read it and think "thats not right they must mean citizen" and so it gets typed into the RCW wrong and it "becomes law" the original wording of the bill makes perfect sense ,that is in line with all the other federal sources , in fact its a good thing because it gives non permanent immigrants a way to apply for firearms ownership while they are here , by going through the background checks that we do , the fact that the FBI wont play ball with that still needs to be resolved though .
the reason that they are being coy about it is because if this is right , they have charged people under it , albeit as a secondary charge not a primary one , I still cant find a case where they have charged anyone simply on this felony alone .also all the people that have paid money into this when they shouldnt have will need paying back . anyone that has sold their guns because of this will want compensation , also anyone who has a mind to sue for distress caused will probably have a reasonable case too .This is gonna be a headache for them .
If I'm right and this is just a rewording of the bill then it should be an easy fix , just send a memo to all depts to say ," where it states citizen read immigrant ". I can see how a mistake could be made if someone did not understand Immigration speak "NON IMMIGRANT" to the untrained could mean anyone who is not an immigrant , this could include a citizen !what it actually means though is non PERMANANT immigrant (migrant workers , visitors for sporting events , students etc) so someone who didnt know that could read it and think "thats not right they must mean citizen" and so it gets typed into the RCW wrong and it "becomes law" the original wording of the bill makes perfect sense ,that is in line with all the other federal sources , in fact its a good thing because it gives non permanent immigrants a way to apply for firearms ownership while they are here , by going through the background checks that we do , the fact that the FBI wont play ball with that still needs to be resolved though .
the reason that they are being coy about it is because if this is right , they have charged people under it , albeit as a secondary charge not a primary one , I still cant find a case where they have charged anyone simply on this felony alone .also all the people that have paid money into this when they shouldnt have will need paying back . anyone that has sold their guns because of this will want compensation , also anyone who has a mind to sue for distress caused will probably have a reasonable case too .This is gonna be a headache for them .
sorry guys
Frack a duck I just found it !!!
The one previous to that in 91 says
the latest one says
this was the latest one which I believe didnt get passed yet , this would solve our problem but till then we are royally rogered , unless the US Department of justice can get involved .
Frack a duck I just found it !!!
The one previous to that in 91 says
the latest one says
this was the latest one which I believe didnt get passed yet , this would solve our problem but till then we are royally rogered , unless the US Department of justice can get involved .
So the same liberal legistlators who say the Constitution applies to illegal aliens including freedom of speech, freedom of abortion, freedom of education, freedom of health care, freedom from taxes or incarceration for criminal deeds, freedom to celebrate the national holidays of a foreign government and burn U.S. flags during those celebrations - the same liberal legislators who are so anxious to protect all of those other "rights" doesn't think that legal immigrants are covered by the 2nd Amendment to the Constitution?
That's just plain weird.
That's just plain weird.
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