The Ammo Capacity Question...

[dom1104]

hmm I dont think I was as clear as I wanted to be. What I mean is, if 2.94 or whatever is enough for NOW, peacetime, when the police have a pretty good rule over the streets, how much is enough LATER when Obamas stimulus plan doesnt work out as planned?


I dont know about you all, but I dont own guns so much for personal protection at the moment, but because I think we are on a long downward spiral as a nation, and its going to get worse before it gets better.


And no, people did not magically be able to afford their homes, or pay of their20k dollar credit card bills in the last 3 months, and no we are NOT on the road to recovery just due to govt spending.

Its going to take personal financial responsibility, which means not SPENDING so much, which means the economy dies due to people not spending as much as they did.

We are in for it people, and the days of fatcat american living are soon to be over.

THIS is what I own self defence guns for.

 

[fastbolt]

While trying to browse through all of the postings in this thread I had to keep reminding myself of the original question ...

So, addressing only the original question, I find myself in general agreement with the early comments posted by rcmodel & Jeff White.

I started my LE career carrying a M66 .357 Magnum revolver on-duty and either a similar 6-shot .357 or a Colt Commander (7+1) off-duty. I was later issued a 5903.

After carrying various issued pistols over the course of my career (and various personally-owned pistols and revolvers off-duty) I finished my career while carrying a 7+1 capacity .45 pistol and mostly carrying a 5-shot J-frame off-duty. This was after carrying pistols with mag capacities of 15, 14, 12, 9, & 8 rds at various times.

Although I sometimes carry a 9mm pistol as a retirement weapon (mag capacities of my 9's run from 7 - 10 rds), and even less often a .40 S&W weapon (mag capacities of my .40's also run 7-10 rds), my most commonly carried retirement CCW is a 5-shot J-frame.

I'm not losing sleep worrying about capacity.

Yes, there are some occasional instances where my activities and inclination influence me to carry one of the higher capacity 9/.40 pistols.

Yes, as well as I can shoot a revolver I can often shoot a pistol better. My training & practice with both platforms continues in retirement, though ... even if it's somewhat less than when I was working as a firearms instructor ... and I'm satisfied with my skill levels when it comes to shooting a revolver.

It's all about personal risk assessment, which is not only situational but includes assessing my skills and abilities with whatever weapon is being selected and carried.

My experience, training, skills and needs do not make me feel ill-equipped or ill-prepared when carrying a 5 (or 6) shot revolver.

Yes, if I were still working I wouldn't want to carry a 5-shot revolver as my primary, even when working my plainclothes assignment.

I would, however, have comfortably carried a 6 or 7-shot medium frame revolver as a plainclothes weapon or even an 8-shot revolver for uniform duty.

Personally, I suspect that some folks who carry pistols with large mag capacities may be prone to substitute mag capacity for quality and frequency of training and personal skills maintenance.

So, FWIW, I'm one of those middle aged folks who do not feel a good revolver is obsolete for civilian (LE & non-LE) defensive application ... and prefer to place my emphasis more on experience, training, skills development & maintenance and mental focus/mindset.

I select my personal defensive weapons according to my anticipated needs, activities and lifestyle ... not the other way around ... and I use common sense and risk assessment.

Some folks might well feel that revolvers are obsolete and inherently less capable of serving as modern defensive weapons. That's their opinion and their choice.

Anyway, some folks shoot pistols better than revolvers, so the capacity issue might ultimately have less importance than them being able to safely, accurately and effectively shoot a pistol better than a DA revolver.

Why do some folks just have to take umbrage at the choices of other folks when it comes to choosing a lawful defensive weapon?

Are some folks just that insecure in their own choices (and abilities) that they require validation from everyone else, or they feel compelled to follow along with whatever is popular with everyone else?

Are some folks still carrying a rabbit's foot for a good luck charm? (Remember when they were sold in different colors on a keychain in the local five & dime? )

Are there a lot of folks who simply buy into the talisman effect?

They don't feel safe unless they're carrying enough 'firepower' for a combat patrol once their feet hit the floor as they get out of bed?

It's just a handgun, folks ...

 

[Fred Fuller]

Take this one back out of the realm of hardware (not to mention OMG TSHTF ) and into S&T, or 'tis done...

lpl

 

[DHJenkins]

It's too bad police reports aren't free (at least here). It'd be nice to actually gather some real data on SD shootings like number of shots fired by each party, typical number of people involved, location, outcomes, etc...

Heck, I'd even spring for a years worth of data on SD shootings but you have to have the actual case number.

 

[Erik M]

I now carry a .38, loaded with +p with at least 1 speed loader, sometimes 2. I just dont see myself in a situation where im going to discharge 18 rounds. I traded a used 9mm that had an 11 round capicity for the .38.

 

[LRaccuracy]

I believe the more rounds the merrier. If I can carry 160 round in my weapon I am going to, especially for self defense.

If you have never been in a real honest to gosh shoot out, after you pull the trigger the first time you will be thinking of how much ammo you have if you only have 5 or 6 rounds and the firefight is still going on.

I have never been in a firefight in my life where I can predict how many rounds I am going to need to survive. Never go to a gunfight without a gun, and what good is your weapon if you don't have enough ammo.

If it is your personal choice to limit the amount of ammunition you carry, I support your personal choice. If you believe others should be limited I strongly disagree with you.


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If you know you are going to be in a firefight, avoid the place the firefight is going to take place. You may live longer.

 

[Old Guy]

Why do some folks just have to take umbrage at the choices of other folks when it comes to choosing a lawful defensive weapon?

Fastbolt, Human nature!

To play a little Devils Advocate though, when you head out on your daily activity's, Supermarket/Bank/Restaurant, dressed to conceal a pistol, Revolver or Semi, to me, what the difference is, size and weight.

A 6 shot Mod 13 S&W, nice gun, or a Glock 19 in 9mm, 16 rounds of +P+, to all intents and purposes, same (about) weight and size.

So I opt for the Glock, better trigger, incredible short reset, 5 lbs as apposed to 10? TruGlow sights, great in daylight, wonderful in poor light, and all those extra cartridges fit into the category of why not?

And for all the posters who talk about "the average gun fight" the one you are in is not average anything, it is yours! And I for one, can not see a single disadvantage of having 16 rounds in my fist, if required, and that huge advantage over a revolver, I can top up to 18, with still one ready to go in the pipe. Whatever was unused in the magazine? back on the belt.

Having said all that, carry what you want, it's a free Country (a little more free in Florida?)

 

[Sheepdog1968]

If I were in a state, that didn't have a high cap ban, I'd probably want 12 or more round capacity. I've taken some courses and one topic was that it takes time from when your brain sees them being shot and no longer a threat to when you send the signal to your finger to stop shooting. You covered it when you took drivers ed but it was your eye foot thing. As such, it is very likely you shoot at least four times and if you have two attackers, eight times. So, I'd want something with a little more than eight shots and I'd look at capactities of 12 or over. My two cents.

 

[Mello]

StrikeFire83

The Ammo Capacity Question...

1. To what degree does ammo capacity come into play in typical self-defense situations?

2. We are told that most self defense encounters end in “2 or 3 shots” but is this really the case? It would seem that most police shootings involve many more than 2 or 3 shots, and I understand self defense is very different from police work, but aren’t we potentially going up against the same criminals when they try to do harm to us?

3. How many rounds/reloads do you carry and why.

4. Has the reliability of the modern, service size auto made the large revolver obsolete for concealed carry?

Since the statical chance of ever having to fire your handgun in self-defense is so small the same argument that people use for justifying their choice of a five shot revolver also justifies not carrying at all. Statistically you won't need it.

Rather than argue statistics and "what you may need", I rather consider what handgun can be carried day in and day out in every season of the year. For me that is a Colt Delta Elite with 10 rounds ready to go, a spare magazine and a Surefire flashlight. I can conceal those items under a t-shirt or a polo shirt in summer or under more clothes in cooler temps. I have been carrying a full sized 1911 for over two decades on my average sized body.

So I won't address questions #1 or #2.
As to question #3, I carry the Delta Elite because it is what I shoot best. I carry an extra mag because of potential need for malfunctions and extra ammo. I carry the light to be able to identify potential targets and distinguish threat from non-threat.
Question #4, I would not say a revolver is obsolete due to the availability of a reliable different action type.

 

[ChCx2744]

I remember one of my instructors telling me, "It's better to have it and not need it, than to *not* have it and need it." I don't know if that's exactly how it is said, but you get the idea. I stick to those ideals. All of my handguns are mag-fed autos. I do not question the reliability of the wheelgun, but I like capacity. I do, however, find that wheelguns have at least one more attribute that is better than autos, and that is press-contact reliability. You never know when you are going to have to make a "literal" point-blank-press-contact shot. With an auto, if you try and make a press contact shot, even if the slide is out of battery a little bit *which happens when you touch that tip of the barrel to something soft* it may not go off. I don't know if I explained it properly, but some of you will understand what I mean.

 

[GLOOB]

Bill Drill

It would sure suck to do a Bill Drill in SD using a revolver, then find out there's another BG. Or that you missed entirely. Ohh, that makes me think of the scene in Pulp Fiction where the kid runs out of the bathroom with the revolver and unloads.

I read a story about a competition shooter turned LEO. In his first gunfight, he and another officer were taking cover behind their car. He took aim on the BG and fired, and fired. He missed all 6 shots... in a hurry. After the incident was over, his partner told him his revolver had sounded like a machine gun going off.

 

[PandaBearBG]

More bullets the better, most everybody here loves there guns and are probably extremely proficient and know them better then their own wives! hahaha, But in a self defense situation, especially at home regardless if you are a crack shot, everything doesn't always work out as planned. I'd want more rounds b/c I might be hammered or 3 sheets too far and my aim is off; I'm tired and sleepy eyed and got no contacts in so I can't see; It's dark and i don't have night sites; I could be taking a leak/out of town and that leaves the wifey or children the closest to the gun and I would want them to have as many shots as they needed plus more!; noone ever knows how they react to that situation until it happens so you might start squeezing rounds off at everything!
On the street if there is no place to run? Well you never know if your getting attacked by a gang instead of a individual so its better to have 3 rounds for each in case you miss; they may struggle with you so with a firm grip on your weapon id keep shooting in desperation until they stop, I could go on and on, for me personally more is better, no such thing as too dead.

 

[Renigeid]

Ok guys, as for me, an old man 73 years old and who, over the years, has come to realize the importance of being prepared, I carry two weapons. A S&W mod 60 (2") 38 spl loaded with Win silver tips in my right front pocket and a PM9 loaded with Speer +P Gold Dots in my left front pocket and a spare mag for the PM9 in my shirt pocket. With the pocket holsters, one rule is to practice , practice, practice your draw.

If, when, confronted I first go for the J frame as my confidence in it is 100% while in the PM9 it is only 99.999%.

A paranoid old man? Not at all. In my 73 years I have on three occassions had to only show the weapon to avert a potential deadly encounter. All were on my home turf and I live out in the country. Two were at night with two perps each time and one was in the day time with two perps. All were outside the house at the time of encounter. All different perps. On two occasions my wife was outside with me and it was at night while out with our dog for his evening stroll. You never know when gentlemen. The other I was ouside by by self when approached by the perps. No, I do not live in a bad section of the country but I am way out in the sticks and could be considered easy prey being an old man. By the way, the wife is also armed.

Why two weapons you ask? Well, in this day and time you just never know when you are out and about what you will encounter. I might mention at home I only carry the S&W Mod 60 in the front pocket or on the right hip in a "high ride".

Why the choice of weapons? Neither has a safety to have to worry about forgetting in the heat of the moment and just like anything else one can fail to function properly although the failure in the revolver is VERY remote.

Sorry about being long winded folks but you sometimes get that way with age. )))

By the way, at night I have a Kimber 45 with lazer attached to my bed side and a Win Defender with 8 triple 0 buck attached by the 45 ACP. Then! Just under my side of the bed is the AK with 30 rounds of hollow point ammo. Now, I won't mention what my wife has on her side. Paranoid ? Nah, not us. Just careful old folks protected with ADT, a good dog, New York blocks on the doors at night and weapons that we shoot almost daily. I have a 17 yd, 50 yd and 100 yd range where we can practice anytime outside. In the shop I have a bullet trap (I made myself) that will take much abuse with cals up to and including my 44 mag.