The Ammo Capacity Question...

[Deanimator]

Deanimator, what is the penalty for carrying your concealed gun into a restaurant that has the Class D license?

I believe that it's a felony. That's enough for me.

People are hard at work as I type this getting that part of the law altered to allow CHL holders to carry into a restaurant with a Class D liquor license if they are not consuming alcohol.

 

[Corporal K]

Shooting 40% is actually far better than many police shootings I have read about; she was either well practiced or really lucky

She was a former LEO

 

[TheFallGuy]

Revolvers will not be obsolete in the foreseeable future. Where I live, it is in the sticks and wide open country. Very little crime and you are not going to get mugged or car jacked. Fist fight in a bar? Sure, but that's about it. A revolver would be fine for this situation.

However I frequently visit friends that live near the capital building in St. Paul. It's a pretty rough neighborhood with lots of gang activity. You can easily spot crack houses if you know what to look for. It isn't uncommon to see multiple people hanging out at a convenience store all wearing the same color jackets and bandanas. All the times I have been there, I drive my Q car (an old POS Jeep with nothing to steal and looks valueless but runs awesome) and maintain a low profile. So far I ignore them, they ignore me. But if my hunch that the fellows hanging out in the same color jackets is true, it is likely that if attacked by one, I will be attacked by all. I have never seen groups of less then two.

While I don't have any figures or statistics to back this up, I assume that most gang members carry auto loading pistols as autos are much more common today then revolvers. What's wrong with carrying more firepower then you need?

I believe in protecting myself as much as I legally can.

 

[Gryffydd]

What's wrong with carrying more firepower then you need?

Apparently you'll be dead before you have a chance to do more than reach towards your gun, if you listen to some people around here. Therefore you might as well carry an empty revolver with 1 round in your front pocket

 

[Deanimator]

Very little crime and you are not going to get mugged or car jacked.

It sure didn't seem that way back in '84 when a friend and I were headed from Saint Louis to Fort Knox in the middle of the night. A guy tried to run us off the road until I pointed a loaded HK93 at him. He'd already run a pickup full of people off the road. Apparently, he didn't think he could take 4-5 people. I guess he thought two people were a better opportunity.

That HK93 had a 40 round magazine in it

There's a non-zero chance we ran into serial killer Alton Coleman, who was touring the midwest at the time. He carjacked and murdered a woman in Ohio. I don't think she was in Cleveland's Public Square when he did it either.

Charlie Starkweather didn't kill anybody on Hollywood Boulevard. It was all in the country.

Violent crime happens wherever violent criminals choose to commit it, whether it's midtown Manhattan or on a back road leading out of Manhattan, Kansas.

 

[ChaoSS]

While this is certainly sometimes true, I think it is important that we don't start to judge shootings based on the number of rounds that were fired. Many of our officer-involved shootings (and we average 8 per year) have involved multiple officers (3-4 cops) at the onset of the shooting, and ammo is quickly dispensed in a gun fight. The other thing we need to recognize is that hit rates go WAY down in a real life-and-death fire fight. One analysis I was shown at work said that, on average, a 98-100% shooter in training will have a hit ratio of about 23% in a real gun battle. So, a surprising number of bullets may move down-range in a short period of time!

The point I am trying to make is that if you think you see someone reaching for something, (later evidence proves he didn't) and you keep shooting till the slide locks, it will make the news in a much bigger way than if you put a single round into someone who isn't complying, but you probably didn't need to use lethal force, and the guy survives.

Big shootings with alot of ammo fired make the news more, so it might be easy to believe that police normally fire alot of ammo when they are involved in a shooting.

Apparently you'll be dead before you have a chance to do more than reach towards your gun, if you listen to some people around here. Therefore you might as well carry an empty revolver with 1 round in your front pocket

Is sarcasm really the best way to get your point across?

 

[Gryffydd]

Well, it's not the worst--and it's more fun than most.

 

[David E]

The point I am trying to make is that if you think you see someone reaching for something, (later evidence proves he didn't) and you keep shooting till the slide locks, it will make the news in a much bigger way than if you put a single round into someone who isn't complying, but you probably didn't need to use lethal force, and the guy survives.

This assumes that the revolver armed cop would stop at one shot. Given the same cop in the same situation with either gun, he'd shoot it to empty.

But shooting someone for making a "furtive movement" can easily be articulated in court, even if he ended up not having a gun.

 

[Deanimator]

This assumes that the revolver armed cop would stop at one shot. Given the same cop in the same situation with either gun, he'd shoot it to empty.

I recall plenty of cops shooting their guns empty back in the '60s and '70s. The only difference was that that was six shots instead of 15.

As I recall the first Illinois State Police trooper to shoot his S&W Model 39 in anger shot to slide lock. I believe he said something to the effect of a suspect in a traffic stop drawing on him. He said that the last thing he remembered was the suspect's gun, before finding himself standing on the shoulder with the slide locked back. In this case it was eight shots instead of fifteen.

 

[benEzra]

I recall plenty of cops shooting their guns empty back in the '60s and '70s. The only difference was that that was six shots instead of 15.

I seem to recall that the NYPD SOP-9 data showed that after the adoption of 15-round semiautos, the average round count (excluding ND's and whatnot) increased to around 8, so most officers were not shooting to slide lock. I'm sure it happens in certain cases, and it may be necessary in certain cases, but it is by no means the norm, at least from what I can find.

As Dick Fairburn has pointed out, the best way to deal with what he termed the "bozo factor" (by which I think he meant officers with either subpar ability or poor self-control that led to "spraying and praying") is screening and training, not limiting magazine capacity.

 

[Templar223]

A skilled and trained man will be equally competent with a semi- as a wheelgun.

Why is it that gear arguments run for pages and pages yet comparably few people read training threads or training reviews?

Guys & Gals: Ammo capacity - especially for a civilian - matters little if you have skills and training.

Worry less about having tacticool gear and more about good training.

John

 

[Deanimator]

I seem to recall that the NYPD SOP-9 data showed that after the adoption of 15-round semiautos, the average round count (excluding ND's and whatnot) increased to around 8, so most officers were not shooting to slide lock. I'm sure it happens in certain cases, and it may be necessary in certain cases, but it is by no means the norm, at least from what I can find.

I never said it was the "norm", but it does happen. The most recent example I can think of is the guys from the bachelor party in NYC whose car was riddled, because they were allegedly trying to run down the cops. At least one cop emptied his firearm, reloaded and resumed firing.

 

[DHJenkins]

Here's a statistic - if you look at the FBI's Uniform Crime Statistics from 2007, there is a 99.99533% chance you will not be the victim in a violent crime.

With statistics like that, why even carry?

 

[farscott]

1. I rather have a few extra rounds than not quite enough rounds, but I balance that want versus the conflicting requirement of concealment and comfort. Yes, I know the old saw about comforting versus comfortable, but if the gear is too heavy, it becomes all too easy to leave it behind. So, like much in life, I compromise.

2. I actually am more concerned with police response times than the type of criminal. My home is in a rural area, and I do a fair amount of driving in rural areas. I work in an urban area. Police response times can run as long as 30 minutes at home and under five minutes at the office. That means that bad guys have more time to attempt something after a 911 call when I am closer to home. In my neck of the woods, home invasions are rare, but they are not unknown. Those are usually performed by more than two people. That means I might need more ammo than the usual 2-3 rounds cited as the deterrent of sirens wailing takes longer to manifest.

3. When I carry a 1911 (most of the time), I have fourteen rounds as I carry seven in the gun and keep a spare magazine on my belt. If I think I am going to need more, I add an extra gun, usually a Centennial or a 1911-style CCO. The Centennial has a Bianchi speed strip for a reload, and I do not carry an extra magazine for the CCO. The CCO is hard to conceal in the summer, so the summer BUG is the Centennial. The CCO is the cool-weather BUG.

4. For me, it has. I have a few service-grade revolvers, a Colt Official Police, a M10, and a M520. The M10 rides in my wife's vehicle, and the other two are locked in my safe. I carry a service-grade pistol, and use revolvers as backup only. My wife, on the other hand, uses S&W revolvers for everything. Her belt gun is a 65LS and her BUG is a 342PD. So I guess the answer is, it depends upon the person. The scary thing is my wife is a better shot than I am even though I get much more practice.

 

[Deanimator]

2. I actually am more concerned with police response times than the type of criminal. My home is in a rural area, and I do a fair amount of driving in rural areas. I work in an urban area. Police response times can run as long as 30 minutes at home and under five minutes at the office. That means that bad guys have more time to attempt something after a 911 call when I am closer to home. In my neck of the woods, home invasions are rare, but they are not unknown. Those are usually performed by more than two people. That means I might need more ammo than the usual 2-3 rounds cited as the deterrent of sirens wailing takes longer to manifest.

Police response time is whatever it is, wherever you are, THAT time.

How long would it PHYSICALLY take for the police to come to your rescue if EVERYTHING went PERFECTLY, AND they were driving past your house when they got the call? Contrast this with how long it would take for somebody to shoot, stab or even beat you to death.

Then ask what the response time would be if:

911 lost the connection or you never got one
911 assigned a higher priority to another call that was a hoax
911 put you on hold
911 demanded that you put your assailant on the line (actually happened in Detroit)
911 took down the wrong information
911 never dispatched police
911 dispatched police to the wrong location
Police didn't bother to respond
Police responded to the wrong location
Police merely drove by your location without stopping or investigating
Police responded, knew what was happening and elected to take no action

Nobody with two braincells to rub together should rely upon 911 or the police for their personal safety, no matter WHERE they live.

 

[DuncanSA]

What you bet your life on is your own choice. Daytime, I normally carry an Astra A75 loaded with hydroshocks. At night, a Colt 1911 with a 10 round mag of .45 hollow-points is in the bedside holster.

 

[Dogbite]

4. Has the reliability of the modern, service size auto made the large revolver obsolete for concealed carry?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely not. There is a reason that some people carry revolvers and some carry semi-autos. Some people shoot revolvers better, or that's what they are comfortable shooting, and they are great with them. Some young people think revolvers are a joke. I can assure you they are not. Any seasoned shooter will tell you in the right hands, they are deadly. All things considered, yes, the modern Glock or Sig is a better combat weapon, but don't ever discount a revolver in a defensive/combat situation.

 

[Dogbite]

I have carried in the past a Glock 29 (10mm). Now I exclusively carry a Smith J-frame, with a speed loader and sometimes some loose rounds added. The J-frame is a dream to carry, light, comfortable, and reliable. I have been shooting 35 years, and I am an excellent shot, so I don't worry that much about capacity. I worry more about my 38+p's getting the job done on target than I do the capacity issue, though I am fairly confident they will do the business. The pocket carried J-frame does have a speed advantage as well. I can have my hand around my revolver in my pocket, which I have done before as a bad situation starts to develop. Two of my buddies asked me why I carry a revolver still. I said, ok, lets do a little test, and Ill show you. They both had semi-autos, one carried SOB, the other strong side, both with covering garments. We all drew our weapons from concealment, and dry fired them to see who could get off the first shot--all standing in a line of course. I had two shots off before they could get their weapons out of the holster, because I can stand naturally with my hand in my pocket. They both said they were very impressed, and were going to look into getting a snubbie for that reason. There is also an advantage in extreme close quarters, the snubbie can be pressed up against someone, and fired, with good effect.

I am not saying that my 10mm isn't a better weapon, of course it is, but there is more to the situation than just capacity and power to consider. Its food for thought, and to each his own. A personal defense gun is a very personal choice, and I'm just glad everyone is carrying something.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I don't own revolvers, and I greatly prefer semis. But I will say this. You can "reach for your wallet" and shoot through your pocket if you need to. It's much harder to do this with a semi.

 

[David E]

Two of my buddies asked me why I carry a revolver still. I said, ok, lets do a little test, and Ill show you.

What was your start signal ? If it was you yelling "GO!," then you had at least a 1/4 second advantage right off the bat.

Did you do a second "test" that started with your hand outside your pocket? There's no guarantee you'll have the great advantage of anticipating the situation to the point of putting your hand on your gun prior to needing it. I doubt you'd win that one.

Did you do another "test" where you had to draw the gun with your weak hand only?

Further, did you do your "test" a second time where you fired live ammo at a 5 yd IPSC target? Just yanking the trigger on an empty gun is one thing. Good hits on a target is another.

I have been shooting 35 years, and I am an excellent shot,

Everyone is an "excellent shot." Welcome to the internet !

I'm just glad everyone is carrying something.

On that, we can agree.

 

[Defense Minister]

If you found yourself faced with an active shooter in a mall, school, civic center, restaurant, or nursing home, he is armed with a shotgun and two high capacity handguns, and is between you and your family, and the safety of the exit, which would you choose, a 5 shot pocket revolver with a long double-action pull, or a compact auto with a lighter trigger pull and a magazine capacity of 10-15 rounds, plus an extra mag?

By the way, these are NOT hypothetical situations!

 

[Corporal K]

If you found yourself faced with an active shooter in a mall, school, civic center, restaurant, or nursing home, he is armed with a shotgun and two high capacity handguns, and is between you and your family, and the safety of the exit, which would you choose, a 5 shot pocket revolver with a long double-action pull, or a compact auto with a lighter trigger pull and a magazine capacity of 10-15 rounds, plus an extra mag?

By the way, these are NOT hypothetical situations!

Of course the high-cap weapon would be my first choice. However, we're getting into the statistical range of winning the lottery. The Mickey-D's you (rhetorically) have been eating 3x per week is more likely to kill you than a madman.

The ammo-capacity argument comes down to risk-level acceptance. I had lunch with a buddy recently who feels the need to carry a Sig P229 and an extra mag. He also feels the need to carry an extra forty pounds of fat and has a horrible diet. His risk-tolerance is vastly different than mine.

 

[Deanimator]

If you found yourself faced with an active shooter in a mall, school, civic center, restaurant, or nursing home, he is armed with a shotgun and two high capacity handguns, and is between you and your family, and the safety of the exit, which would you choose, a 5 shot pocket revolver with a long double-action pull, or a compact auto with a lighter trigger pull and a magazine capacity of 10-15 rounds, plus an extra mag?

If it was ONE shooter, it wouldn't matter. I'm going to find cover and concealment, fire from a supported position and make every one of my shots count. As they say, you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

 

[Old Guy]

Reality

Do the same things you always do! Same gun, same spare magazine, same place holster, every day.

When you reach for that pistol, no surprises.

Glock 19, spare mag? A Glock 17 one, two extra rounds (why not?)

"More is better always" This combination is easy to carry, the extra ammunition is just there, they don't eat nothing. If you need 5 rounds, you have them, if you need more, you have them as well!

If you do not need to shoot anything, that's OK, if you do, you can.

 

[dom1104]

I dunno, I can think of 5 stories I have heard just in the last few weeks on the news where there were multiple attackers in a home invasion.

I feel much safer with 14 rounds in my CZ than I would with 5 in a j frame.

More is better.


And if that guy documenting the whole argentinian financial collapse is right, 5to 15 attackers assaulting a home is the norm.




My wife lived a good portion of her teenage years in S. Africa, and let me tell you they take security a LOT more seriously than we do.

Lets not be so fond of our "safe america" to think it wouldnt change in an instant if unemployment got out of control and the ghetto bangers cant afford their 24 inch rims.

<wow that sounded REALLY racist...lemme even it up.>

Or if the rednecks cant buy gas for their jacked up jeeps.

<There we go.>