The Ammo Capacity Question...

[Deanimator]

Why don't you post an example of 2-6 other people taking a private citizen under fire outside of a drive by shooting? Your scenario is ridiculous. We don't live in Baghdad. In almost any self defense scenario you can name that happens here in the good old USofA your assailants will be trying to rob you or the business you are at. Not a lot of places where you are going to walk into a L ambush.

You mean like the Asian store owner I saw on the security video who defended himself from at least three assailants? He used a revolver by the way. It was on "A Current Affair" or one of the similar Fox shows from the '90s. Pro-Arms off of Route 8 in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio used to have a copy in the store.

In that situation YOU my friend will most likely start the fight when you choose to resist. If they start the fight you are probably injured or dead before you get a chance to get a round off.

If you have something TO "resist", you haven't STARTED, anything.

And as to how I "know" somebody's trying to murder me? When you SHOOT at me, that's what's called a "logical inference". THE LAW says that shooting at somebody is "deadly force". Note the word "deadly". It's there for a reason.

What I'm seeing from you is a very strong degree of condescension toward people who refuse to be victims of violent crimes involving deadly force. It's too bad you have nothing else to offer them.

I doubt that you would passively allow yourself to be murdered by two or more people. One wonders why you think anybody else would.

 

[StrikeFire83]

G19x, how do you fit a Glock 26 in your shorts pocket? Are you wearing really baggy homie shorts or something? A lot of people pocket carry a G26 and I don't see how they do it.

I'm 5'10", 200 lbs, a little bit of a gut but not too bad, and I don't see how a G26 is going to be able to fit in the pocket of even relaxed fit jeans or board shorts, to say noting of business slacks.

 

[Deanimator]

G19x, how do you fit a Glock 26 in your shorts pocket? Are you wearing really baggy homie shorts or something? A lot of people pocket carry a G26 and I don't see how they do it.

It'd probably work just fine with British "Tommy" type shorts with cargo pockets.

 

[G19x]

I'm wearing Khaki old navy (I think) cargo shorts. Not baggy homie shorts..not my thing.
6' 190#.
Honestly the only reason its in the pocket and not in my holster is I'm not wearing a shirt. Pretty much everything else I wear the gun hides under a tshirt...or whatever else the top garment may be.

Even a pair of my jeans I can but it's a bit tighter. I get poked fun at for my "slim" jeans my a couple of my friends.

 

[Deanimator]

I'm wearing Khaki old navy (I think) cargo shorts. Not baggy homie shorts..not my thing.

Desantis now makes a special "cargo pocket" version of their Nemesis pocket holster.

 

[ByAnyMeans]

It's a personal decision obviously but for me it's an autoloader. I shoot them better than revolvers so it was a no brainer for me. I like capacity and fastest follow up shots and therefore go for a 9mm. Glock 26, ten round in pocket or under t-shirt and a fifteen rounder when I'm able to conceal it or it's on my nightstand. I like my jeans loose cut and with a size larger for iwb carry it fits my pocket, no homie shorts needed.

I would in no way feel outgunned with a revolver if I was good with one but what I don't understand is why some tell me I don't need more than five shots in my gun at once for self defense yet they carry a speedloader/strip or two. It seems to me they believe they may need the rounds just they would rather have to reload in the middle of a fight in order to use them.

 

[Straight Shooter]

What is the average BG carrying? Is it a 6 shot revolver? Wouldn't you want to be at least as well armed if not better armed?

I cringe every time I see that "3 shot" statistic. This does not mean that your individual scenario will not go 10 shots.

A self defense scenario will last until the last shot is fired, whether that means someone got hit or someone ran out of ammo.

 

[Gryffydd]

what I don't understand is why some tell me I don't need more than five shots in my gun at once for self defense

+1 It's the "Always be prepared--wait, no, not THAT prepared" attitude.

I like capacity and fastest follow up shots and therefore go for a 9mm. Glock 26, ten round in pocket or under t-shirt and a fifteen rounder when I'm able to conceal it or it's on my nightstand.

Wait a second, so there's a middle ground between a 5 shot .38 and carrying an M4, Beretta 92, 60 pounds of ammo and 30 pounds of armor around?

 

[Maelstrom]

Wait a second, so there's a middle ground between a 5 shot .38 and carrying an M4, Beretta 92, 60 pounds of ammo and 30 pounds of armor around?

Not if you ask Gecko45.

 

[Gryffydd]

Not if you ask Gecko45.

Or....Oh never mind.

 

[StrikeFire83]

For what its worth, I just got back from the range and posted pics of the results of shooting both my CZ-75B and my Kahr PM9. As you'll see, I need a lot of work with the PM9. Sorry revolver guys, I don't have any 38 special and was unwilling to pay the ridiculous range ammo prices so I was unable to shoot the S&W 638.

Drop in on my thread and give your thoughts/opinions.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=459939

 

[benEzra]

Most defensive shootings, whether police or civilian, involve 2-3 shots if any at all. When you say "It seems like more than that" it's because of all the attention bigger shootings get.

By definition, all defensive shootings involve some shots fired. IIRC, when you factored out negligent discharges and other such incidents, the NYPD SOP-9 data showed that the average number of rounds fired per officer per engagement is around eight. I have a cite from Ayoob on that around here somewhere.

I think the idea that if you have a 5-shot revolver, you will be able to coolly make disabling hits on two or possibly three assailants while attempting to scramble off the X and/or get clear is probably not realistic for most of us.

And yes, last year we had a couple of home invasions in our neighborhood; IIRC, at least one of them involved 2 or 3 would-be robbers, not just lone actors. The Connecticut home invasion last year that resulted in the rape and murder of a mother and her two children was perpetrated by two attackers acting together.

 

[Deanimator]

And yes, last year we had a couple of home invasions in our neighborhood; IIRC, at least one of them involved 2 or 3 would-be robbers, not just lone actors.

Most of the home invasions I see covered in the media involve multiple suspects. Criminals aren't that bright usually, but often bright enough to not want either to be outnumbered or outflanked.

 

[Maelstrom]

Most of the home invasions I see covered in the media involve multiple suspects. Criminals aren't that bright usually, but often bright enough to not want either to be outnumbered or outflanked.

Don't give them credit for human intelligence. A few stupid mutts will attack in packs, too.

 

[Deanimator]

Don't give them credit for human intelligence. A few stupid mutts will attack in packs, too.

Don't confuse evil with stupidity. A lack of human decency isn't the same as an inability to make short term plans.

It doesn't take a genius to not want to be outnumbered or to end up with somebody behind you unexpectedly. It's why Arthur Buford here brought a friend along when he tried to rob a guy on his own front lawn. Fortunately, the victim didn't take the malicious "advice" of some and just put his life into the hands of a couple of holdup men. Artie's in the ground and his pal is in jail facing felony murder and other charges.

 

[Grey_Mana]

If we are lucky and aren't swept up in riots/famine/disaster, then FBI statistics are best best handle. I couldn't find any direct data for multiple assailant violent crimes. However, the FBI (http://www.fbi.gov/publications/ngta2009.pdf) says

According to local law enforcement information, gang members are responsible for as much as 80 percent of the crime in some locations.

Violent disputes over control of drug territory and enforcement of drug debts frequently occur among street gangs in urban areas and, increasingly, in suburban communities where gangs have expanded their drug distribution operations.

Gang members also engage in a host of other criminal activities such as auto theft, assault, alien smuggling, burglary, drive-by shootings, extortion, firearms offenses, home invasion robberies, homicide, identity theft, insurance fraud, mortgage fraud, operating prostitution rings, and weapons trafficking.

Even assuming a slight basis in source (since presumably the 80% statistic is from the people most involved in anti-gang work), multiple assailant crimes seem likely to be gang crimes; when we avoid 'being in the wrong place at the wrong time' and avoid drugs and prostitution, we've cut our risks substantially.


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In contrast, consider the # of justifiable homicides by non-LEOs: For 2007, a total of only 254 justifiable homicides, of which 198 (78%) used firearms.

In contrast, 2007 saw 16,629 murders and 90,427 rapes. I'd like to see those numbers flip: the justifiable homicide number going as high as necessary to drop the murder & rape numbers below a thousand. These numbers clearly show more people need to be more effective at protecting themselves. I opine that the key issues are 1) training and practice, 2) having a gun when we need one. Ammo capacity and ammo caliber are worries when you are already squared away on #1 and #2.

 

[sidheshooter]

Nothing to add to the debate; we seem to have solidified in the facts, and most in their opinions. But I will throw in yet one more answer for numbers 3 and 4, just for kicks:

3. How many rounds/reloads do you carry and why.
I'm often a Smith 36-1 guy; that's one 3-inch 5 shooter with 2 HKS loaders in reserve. To quote (paraphrase) Kelly McCann "I feel pretty well armed with this setup and my non-confrontational nature."

4. Has the reliability of the modern, service size auto made the large revolver obsolete for concealed carry?

Probably, IMHO, and I'm a real revolver guy by nature. I have a number of K-frames, and I have even been known to lug them around; but that's only because I really like them, and I have shot a lot of ammo through a K-frame in training. I'd never be one to argue that, even with .357 mag loadings, I'm better off with the six shooter than somebody who sports, say, one of the largest Kahrs with 9mm +P or something, at a significant weight savings.

I'm with the folks who suggest that mindset, training and tools should be considered in that order. But I'm just another guy, I don't go in harms way for a living. I therefore wouldn't be so bold as to argue against "40 of .40", as one guy with a 13+1 Glock and 2 spares once told me of his daily armament, as being paranoid...

 

[Deanimator]

4. Has the reliability of the modern, service size auto made the large revolver obsolete for concealed carry?

Not really. It's just given you another choice.

I carry a variety of semi-autos and a 3" S&W Model 65 interchangeably. In any LIKELY self-defense situation in the street, the 65 will get the job done. In addition, I can jam it in somebody's abdomen and not worry about a malfunction.

 

[benEzra]

sidheshooter, I generally carry an S&W 3913 Ladysmith (8+1) and 2 spare magazines, for 25 rounds total.

 

[cleetus03]

Why do people buy 4x4 trucks and suv's when 99.9% of the time they drive on paved roads?....Because nothing is more satisfying then taking on a future hypothetical situation where your 4wd LOW can & will save the day.


I have a Taurus PT99 with a Mec-Gar "Optimum" 20rd flush fit mag for Home-Defense. I may not ever need all 21 rds of Gold Dot +p 124gr, but boy the feeling of just having that firepower is priceless...

TO EACH HIS OWN!

EDIT; Well having a 4wd is the first step to taking on the unknown just like having a 5-6 shooter but to really get you through any imaginary hypothetical scenarios; your gonna want a lift, Big*** Super-Swamper tires (possibly Boggers), a 20,000 lbs winch, dual electronic lockers, etc........you get the point

 

[adrenalyn]

Used to carry the 500 mag. planned on asking multiple bg's to all get in line so I could end in 1 shot. after my stroll developed a limp and curvature of the spine, I carry an HK40 13rds + 2 12rd spares.Sorry, couldnt resist.

 

[Corporal K]

Just some thoughts on ammo and multiple goblins:

1. at Columbine, the security guard traded shots with the terrorists (that's what they were) but then was forced out of the fight when he ran out of ammo. I don't know what weapon he had. But had he been equipped with multiple mags, would he actually have gone into the school to hunt down Kleibold and Harris? Not likely, unless one of his own kids were there. Denver, Littleton, and Jefferson County SWAT all showed up with enough ammo to take down a squad of al Qaeda and instead stood around with their thumbs up their rears while kids were being shot.

2. at Beslan a security guard and a cop managed to kill one terrorist before they were mowed down. We all know what happened after that.

3. at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, armed citizen with a 92F drops AR-wielding terrorist with a backpack full of mags. I don't know how many shots the citizen fired.

In some cases ammo capacity matters. In others, it's completely irrelevant.

 

[Rockwell1]

at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, armed citizen with a 92F drops AR-wielding terrorist with a backpack full of mags. I don't know how many shots the citizen fired

.

I think ten, she emptied the magazine and he shot himself in the head

 

[ilbob]

Why don't you post an example of 2-6 other people taking a private citizen under fire outside of a drive by shooting?

Didn't this just happen in Chicago a week or so ago where a drug dealer was shot at by 3 guys in a passing car?

 

[Stormshotty]

One word: Zombies.