The Ammo Capacity Question...

[smithmax]

Ragnar: That's why I have 2 more full mag's nearby.

If I'm ever in a high-stress situation I hope to have the wherewithal to use my training of taking 3 shots and then scanning the area. There have been a handful of justified HD shootings in my area recently, and they all involved one bad guy. Also, meth heads are a big problem out here, so my biggest concern is one of them wandering in and becoming aggressive when confronted and yelled at to leave my house.

 

[GojuBrian]

" Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it!! "

 

[Maelstrom]

Locally, in the last month, of 29 armed robberies in my city five robberies had one suspect, thirteen robberies had two suspects, seven robberies had three suspects, three robberies had four suspects, one robbery had six suspects.

1-5
2-13
3-7
4-3
6-1

If you want six rounds, go right ahead. I'll pass.

Incidentally, for statistical purposes, 100% of the suspects fell into the same statistical group. Per our 2000 census this group made up 28.53% of our population but committed robbery at a 70-0 rate in June.

 

[Deanimator]

I'm comfortable with revolvers and semi-autos, although I only carry a five shot revolver when it's difficult to carry anything else.

I'm more concerned with the round fired. I'd never carry anything smaller than a .380acp, and wouldn't carry that if there was ANY way to carry something bigger.

 

[theotherwaldo]

Of the seven self-defense situations I've been through that involved a firearm, only two shots were fired. And I regret one of those two shots.

No, I have no problem with the idea of carrying a revolver. As long as you practice!

 

[ilbob]

I can't even carry a single shot firearm in my own state.

Personally, I am pretty much convinced that a SD gun has to be small and light enough that you will carry it as often as it is practical and legal. That limits the amount of ammo you can have.

When I worked as an armed guard years ago, I carried a revolver and two speed strips of backup. 18 rounds. Never felt the need for more ammo.

However, a guy who worked for the same company out of a different office kept a Mini14 in his patrol vehicle.

 

[Deanimator]

Personally, I am pretty much convinced that a SD gun has to be small and light enough that you will carry it as often as it is practical and legal. That limits the amount of ammo you can have.

The only thing currently inclining me to carry a 2" Model 36 is the weather. I don't have to wear an undershirt when I carry that gun in a pocket holster. If I had IWB holsters other than the Bianchi 715Ms I have for everything else, I'd be able to carry IWB regardless of the weather. I have to wear an undershirt to protect my side from the bigger guns, and those guns from my sweat. That makes them uncomfortable in very hot weather. I don't have the money now, but when I do, I'll be getting purpose built "tuckable" holsters with leather between me and the gun.

 

[Grey_Mana]

Americans have been stocking up on guns and ammo since November 2008 because they are worried about what is going to happen, not prevalent precedents. If your worst-case scenario is one or two guys breaking in to steal your TV, plan for that. If you are worried about a "robust debate" and "the possibility of change ... people looking at new possibilities", then prepare for that.

 

[mljdeckard]

1. Not much. We don't live in MelGibsonland, where you roll while continuously firing 15 shots. I don't ever see a situation where I have to continuously for that much without a break to reload. If you ARE in such a situation, you are asking a pistol to do a rifle's job.

2. Most defensive shootings, whether police or civilian, involve 2-3 shots if any at all. When you say "It seems like more than that" it's because of all the attention bigger shootings get.

3. I carry a full-size 1911 with an 8 rd magazine +1, and two 7 round reloads. The reloads really aren't so much for more rounds, it's to be able to clear a stoppage. I could see myself getting a pouch with space for one magazine and a good flashlight instead.

4. I'm not a revolver guy, but they are hardly obsolete. Show me a guy who's confident enough to carry a revolver defensively, and I'll show you a guy who's probably confident enough to only need five rounds.

 

[Gryffydd]

1 and 2 have been answered pretty thoroughly.
3. If I'm carrying my 1911, 8+1 in the gun, 8 in a spare mag. If I'm carrying my GP100, 6 in the cylinder, 6 in a speed loader, and sometimes 6 more in a speed strip just because I can. If I need more than that I'm failing to withdraw properly.
4. Obsolete? Definitely not. It has given us more options though, and that's always a good thing.

 

[Jeff White]

Locally, in the last month, of 29 armed robberies in my city five robberies had one suspect, thirteen robberies had two suspects, seven robberies had three suspects, three robberies had four suspects, one robbery had six suspects.

Are you part of the armed robbery detail on you local police department? Surely you don't work alone if you are?

If you aren't engaged in the business of stopping these crimes in progress, then perhaps you needn't plan and prepare to do it. Lone citizens shooting it out with multiple assailants makes great entertainment in the movies and on TV and everyone remembers Tom Cruise's "Is that my bag" scene in Collateral but those are all works of fiction, if you are planning for a shootout with 2 to six assailants, I'd suggest you bring a friend or two with you. That's not the kind of fight you go into alone....

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

What if the fight comes to him, like it obviously did with the people who got robbed?

 

[Jeff White]

What if the fight comes to him, like it obviously did with the people who got robbed?

Only a fool would stand alone and fight against two to six assailants if another option was available. In real life there is no screen writer to pen a heroic, happy ending.

 

[Deanimator]

Tom Cruise's "Is that my bag" scene in Collateral but those are all works of fiction, if you are planning for a shootout with 2 to six assailants, I'd suggest you bring a friend or two with you. That's not the kind of fight you go into alone

I wouldn't CHOOSE to be in a gunfight with ONE person.

Unless you plan to passively submit to an attack by more than one person, you're going to defend yourself from however many people choose to try to do you harm.

Am I to believe that one violent criminal's a danger to me which must be confronted, but three AREN'T?

I may be hopelessly eccentric, but I don't consider it more desirable to be maimed or murdered by 2 to (n) people than by one.

 

[Deanimator]

Only a fool would stand alone and fight against two to six assailants if another option was available.

What's the "other option"? Let them murder you? Trust in their basic decency? Run away? I wasn't a fast runner when I was 21. At 51, I'm 100% certain that I can't run at 1100fps. Of course the US Army was pretty insistent on the inherent foolishness of trying.

 

[Gryffydd]

No one plans for a shootout with multiple (ANY) assailants. However, just by carrying guns for self defense we're planning on an extremely unlikely occurrence. I don't understand the logic that It's a good idea to plan for the highly unlikely occurrence defend yourself, then turn around and say it's silly to think you could possibly need more than 5 rounds. Unlikely? yes. But if we weren't already planning for the unlikely we wouldn't be carrying at all.

Obviously there's a point where this "Always Be Prepared" idea can be taken too far...Body armor for your shopping trip to Fred Meyer with the family perhaps... But when all you're talking is a slightly different shape on the grip of your gun, or a few speed loaders/mags on your belt...why not?

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Only a fool would stand alone and fight against two to six assailants if another option was available. In real life there is no screen writer to pen a heroic, happy ending.

And that other option we will always have is...?

 

[Jeff White]

And that other option we will always have is...?

Disengage...yes I know that many here think that they will be permanently removed from the American Male Society and enrolled in the Monday Afternoon Ladies Garden Club if they even think of disengaging. Who knows maybe some of you are actually good enough to draw and shoot down 2 or more assailants who already have the drop on you? Maybe lady luck will smile on you that day? But most likely you will die right there on the spot. How many would be heroes have died trying to draw on one (1) assailant who already had them covered? Quite a few....

Starting a fight you can't win is not the smartest course of action, but that's just my opinion.

You all can buy yourself some IBAS and a K-pot and walk around town with your M4gery and 400 rounds of 5.56 and a Beretta 92F and 60 rounds of 9mm so you are prepared in case the Taliban sleeper cell decides to take out your local mall, that's your business. But in my opinion you need to make a realistic assessment of the the threat.

You are going to need a lot more then a high capacity pistol and a few extra mags to prevail against two to six assailants, that is reality..........It sucks sometimes, but that's the nature of reality.

 

[Deanimator]

Starting a fight you can't win is not the smartest course of action, but that's just my opinion.

That's a fascinating turn of phrase. "Starting a fight", especially with a firearm, is typically a felony.

If one person or ten put me in reasonable, immediate fear of life and limb and I defend myself, that's not "starting a fight". It's self-defense.

I'm betting you're going to have a hard time explaining how a citizen is going to "disengage" from a gunfight started by 2-6 other people. As I said, the Army was pretty adamant about my inability to outrun a bullet. That's when I was in my teens and twenties. At 51, I doubt I could outrun the gunmen, nevermind outrun the bullets.

A deadly force encounter isn't like the "Lord of the Rings/porn tape" episode of "South Park". When people are shooting at you, trying to murder you, you can't do like the little Black kid and just say, "I'm not playing anymore. I'm out." You can defend yourself or you can put yourself at the mercy of people trying to murder you. Those are your choices. I wasn't aware that violent criminals had signed onto the Geneva Conventions recently. They certainly don't appear to recognize any duty to let you "surrender", certainly with any assurance that they won't murder you after you do.

 

[Rockwell1]

I disagree with the tone of Jeff's post because (to me) it almost sounds like " you've got no chance so you might as well not even try." but I think the logic ( if you take on 2 or more bad guys when any other option is available you're an idiot) is sound.

That said in my home the most likely scenario is the BGs between me and the door I've go no choice I'm fighting it out.

Another scenario would have my wife involved she can't run away, she'll be doing good if she can get out of the way. I promise you I WILL be dead before any harm comes to her.

To answer the direct question I carry a 12 round magazine and 1 (12 round)spare. I can't imagine a bad guy pressing the attack once he/they realize you're fighting back.

 

[G19x]

I think you'd be hard pressed to find an incident where a 5shot revolver is carried on your person but a g26 or even a 19 can't be. As I write this im sitting in my back yard with nothing but shorts and still have the 26 and a spare 15 rounder. No one would ever notice.
So really why not?
Especially for new shooters that haven't grown up with a revolver.

 

[Gryffydd]

As I write this im sitting in my back yard

Well there you have it.

Starting a fight you can't win is not the smartest course of action, but that's just my opinion.

Who said anything about STARTING a fight?

yes I know that many here think that they will be permanently removed from the American Male Society and enrolled in the Monday Afternoon Ladies Garden Club if they even think of disengaging.

I don't think anybody here thinks that. I think we'd all prefer to disengage, if given the choice

You all can buy yourself some IBAS and a K-pot and walk around town with your M4gery and 400 rounds of 5.56 and a Beretta 92F and 60 rounds of 9mm so you are prepared in case the Taliban sleeper cell decides to take out your local mall, that's your business. But in my opinion you need to make a realistic assessment of the the threat.

Yes, because carrying a pistol with 17 rounds and a spare mag is somehow the same as carrying a rifle, 14 rifle magazines, 4 pistol magazines, body armor and a helmet.
Just because somebody thinks it might be prudent to have more rounds than they need rather than less doesn't make them this straw man mall ninja you're painting.

 

[Jeff White]

I'm betting you're going to have a hard time explaining how a citizen is going to "disengage" from a gunfight started by 2-6 other people.

Why don't you post an example of 2-6 other people taking a private citizen under fire outside of a drive by shooting? Your scenario is ridiculous. We don't live in Baghdad. In almost any self defense scenario you can name that happens here in the good old USofA your assailants will be trying to rob you or the business you are at. Not a lot of places where you are going to walk into a L ambush.

In that situation YOU my friend will most likely start the fight when you choose to resist. If they start the fight you are probably injured or dead before you get a chance to get a round off.

If you think you are going to stand in the open and exchange fire with 2-6 bad guys then you must believe that you are bulletproof. I guess that's better then being unable to outrun a bullet .

A deadly force encounter isn't like the "Lord of the Rings/porn tape" episode of "South Park".

And what would you know about a deadly force encounter? How much personal experience with them do you have?

You can defend yourself or you can put yourself at the mercy of people trying to murder you.

And you know they are out to murder you how? Again let me repeat, if they are truly out to murder you, you will most likely be dead or grievously wounded before you know what happened. The bad guys never signed the Geneva Convention nor do they play under the Marquis of Queensbury Rules. What have you done in your personal lifestyle that has made you the target of this criminal gang that's out to murder you?

Draw on someone who already has you covered with their weapon and you will most likely lose. Draw on a group of people who have you covered with their weapons and barring divine intervention or the greatest luck imaginable and you are almost certain to lose.

If they are herding you all into the freezer after they robbed the restaurant, then it might be time for desperate measures. Until the time you are certain that you have no other option it makes no sense to start a gunfight with several armed assailants. Comply, disengage...if you are carrying a large amount of ammunition simply because you are worried you might get in a protracted gunfight with more then one armed assailant and you don't live a criminal lifestyle where the odds of that happening are increased 100 fold then I think might want to rework your threat assessment.

 

[Gryffydd]

And what would you know about a deadly force encounter? How much personal experience with them do you have?

I didn't know personal experience with deadly force was needed to opine that it would be dissimilar to an episode of South Park

 

[Maelstrom]

Look, to be fair, a good many of these "victims" aren't what you'd call innocent.

Ragnar answered Jeff like I would have. Few responsible citizens ask to get robbed. It's one of those situations which are thrust upon you and you must act accordingly.

Avoid it? Of course that's my first choice! But the purpose of fighting is to win, and if you can't win because you're not equipped then be sure the other guy may very well have thought further ahead than you.

Criminals have not become more bold, they've become more stupid. Very few people of this nature look ahead to the consequences of their actions. It is up to us, the victims, to teach them.