The Ammo Capacity Question...

[benEzra]

Quote:
at New Life Church in Colorado Springs, armed citizen with a 92F drops AR-wielding terrorist with a backpack full of mags. I don't know how many shots the citizen fired.

Quote:
I think ten, she emptied the magazine and he shot himself in the head

She fired 10 rounds, made 4 hits, and the bad guy apparently didn't drop until toward the end of the shooting. And if it is true that the shot the gun dry, she almost ran out of ammo before she ran out of attacker.

If she had been carrying a 5-shot snubbie, things could potentially have gone badly for her if the bad guy didn't go down by the end of the first five shots. As it was, it appears it was still a near thing, and having more than 10 rounds in that situation would have given her a little more margin.

 

[Deanimator]

If she had been carrying a 5-shot snubbie, things could potentially have gone badly for her if the bad guy didn't go down by the end of the first five shots. As it was, it appears it was still a near thing, and having more than 10 rounds in that situation would have given her a little more margin.

Of course as some would advise, she could have "not started a fight she couldn't win", and just hid behind something until he ran out of ammunition or victims.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

After all, a regular bystander shooting it out with a AR-wielding madman is something that only happens in movies. That's never happens in real life right?

 

[Deanimator]

After all, a regular bystander shooting it out with a AR-wielding madman is something that only happens in movies. That's never happens in real life right?

Similarly, regular bystanders never retrieve personally owned weapons to suppress a sniper in a tall building. This especially never happens in Texas.

 

[Gryffydd]

Of course as some would advise, she could have "not started a fight she couldn't win", and just hid behind something until he ran out of ammunition or victims.

Considering it was an "assault rifle" vs. a handgun the odds were certainly against her. Definitely should have "disengaged".

 

[Deanimator]

Considering it was an "assault rifle" vs. a handgun the odds were certainly against her. Definitely should have "disengaged".

I'm not religious, but I'm sure there's something in the bible about being your "brother's keeper"... unless he's being threatened by a guy with an "assault rifle". Then it's "every man for himself". Just be a "good witness"... to however many murders take place... unless it might expose you to danger.

 

[LA Sig]

I find it odd that someone was attending church packing. Most really religious people I know contend that God will protect them. I actually got into an argument with a co-worker that carpooled with me about this subject. He says that he didn't need a firearm to protect himself as the Lord will take care of him. I asked him if the Bible had a passage that says that God helps those who helps themselves. He says that is not what it means and that I should not twist God's words to fit my needs. This guy has already been to Iraq twice and didn't want to talk about the differences in military necessities and a civilian defending himself/herself.

I personally carry a SIG P228 DA/SA 10+1 and a 10 shot spare mag. Work carry SIG P229 DAK .40 total of 36 rounds and Colt 6920 with 100+ rounds. I predict I will need my personal firearm before my duty ones and pray that I need none of them but thankful that I do have them available.

 

[benEzra]

I find it odd that someone was attending church packing. Most really religious people I know contend that God will protect them.

God certainly didn't work that way in the book of Nehemiah, when they were rebuilding their city in a hostile environment.

Most Christians believe God provides everything you need, but they also believe you're supposed to work like it all depends on you. Likewise, God may protect you and your children/family from those who would harm them, but it's also your responsibility.

Considering it was an "assault rifle" vs. a handgun the odds were certainly against her. Definitely should have "disengaged".

And how many people would have died as a result?

BTW, the woman with the handgun WON. But she might not have if she had been shooting a 5-shot snubbie.

 

[Deanimator]

I find it odd that someone was attending church packing. Most really religious people I know contend that God will protect them.

A friend told me that the next service after 9/11, his synagogue could have held a gun show, just with what people were carrying. And that was BEFORE there was CCW in Ohio.

 

[Gryffydd]

Most really religious people I know contend that God will protect them.

I contend that he'll protect me by making my aim true when it needs to be

 

[David E]

In almost any self defense scenario you can name your assailants will be trying to rob you or the business you are at.

Maybe.......but are you willing to stake your life on what you think they're going to do? They introduced the threat of deadly force (why else would I be compelled to comply?) and I'm not telepathic, so I don't know what they're going to do. Should I wait until they pat me down and find my gun? Should I let one opportunity after another pass by until all chances have slipped away and now I KNOW they're going to kill me? Are you suggesting that I meekly comply like a school mate of mine did and get murdered anyway, on my knees?

In that situation YOU my friend will most likely start the fight when you choose to resist.

Bullcrap. Someone had to say it, so I just did. THE BADGUYS "started it" when they decided to rob me. THEY introduced the deadly force element, not me. I only answered it with deadly force in return.

Does that mean be stupid and draw against a drawn gun? Not if you have to, but there will be opportunities you can take advantage of, or create one or two if none present themeselves.

Telling the goodguy who chooses to resist against the threat of deadly force is akin to telling a woman not to fight the rapist and just to give in to him. After all, she'll just make him mad and according to the stats, he probably won't kill her and once he completes the rape, he'll just leave her alone.....

Disengage? Yeah, I'm sure my school mate tried leaving the liquor store as it was being robbed but the two badguys had other ideas. They had the 5 of them kneel down and shot each one in the back of the head.....even after they had the money they'd come for....even after all the victims complied with their demands and posed no threat whatsoever.....

"Just disengage" is a ludicrous piece of advice.

If I am ever unfortunate enough to find myself in a robbery situation and the badguys have introduced the threat of deadly force, they are fair game in my book. If I choose to, I would be justified to draw and shoot them down without warning them first, quickly and without hesitation. To dither in that situation is to die.

I will not allow myself to be patted down by a badguy. He'd find my gun and take it. His gun may not have worked; I know mine does.

I will not allow myself to be herded "into the back room" or kneel with hands behind my head.

I will not allow them to take my children or wife into the back room.

I may not win the fight, but they sure as hell will not get me for free.

Why do I carry a gun? Because I refuse to entrust my life to the mere `whim of another.

 

[junyo]

I may not win the fight, but they sure as hell will not get me for free.

Amen.

As to the original question, I say carry what your comfortable with, but if comfort/weight aren't a huge factor it's better to have and not need, than need and not have.

 

[mrokern]

If I'm carrying a semi-auto, I'm carrying a spare mag. Why? Malfunctions, first of all. Murphy pops his head up at the worst possible times. Call it his little gift.

It happens to give me extra rounds. Considering that most anything I carry is a single stack gun, extra rounds are welcome.

If I'm traveling, I'm carrying more than that. Mags and guns.

JMO.

-Mark

ETA - And to comment on LA Sig's post above, I absolutely carry in church. God gave me the ability to obtain the tools to defend myself, and the gift of being skilled in using them. I know first-hand that I'm not the only one in that church carrying more than a bible, either (mega-church, by most standards).

 

[AKElroy]

I find it odd that someone was attending church packing.

I carry every service; I have been asked to, in fact. I would fully expect to have to answer to the Lord for any innocents I left defensless should some nutjob do his worst without some armed opposition. I might very well have been the intended "protection" the Lord was expecting to utilize.

 

[AKElroy]

She fired 10 rounds, made 4 hits, and the bad guy apparently didn't drop until toward the end of the shooting. And if it is true that the shot the gun dry, she almost ran out of ammo before she ran out of attacker.

Shooting 40% is actually far better than many police shootings I have read about; she was either well practiced or really lucky. As for snubbies vs. auto's, I really don't get the snubby argument. I do not shoot them nearly as well as my pistols; add the quick re-loads & more capacity & I simply do not see a valid argument against autos. As for reliability, I have probably 10k through my G27 w/ ZERO FTF's, FTE's. With a quality gun & proper maintenance, the reliability argument is moot. I recently went to the range with a buddy that has been carrying his Taurus 85 CH in an ankle holster for years; very rarely shot. 5 rounds, 5 pulls, 5 clicks. Lint was so tightly packed in the FP channel the gun was useless. No gun is 100% w/o proper care. Either can be 100% with it; the auto simply holds more & shoots them better.

 

[kanewpadle]

I carry two guns. Normally an M&P 9 5" and an M&P 9 Compact. Total I have 48 rounds on me. Why? I carry a BUG and spare full size mag that will fit either gun. I don't carry for capacity. I carry an extra mag because it's the heart of the gun. If I draw and hit the mag release or someone tries to prevent my draw and the magazine dropped I will at least have another gun and a full size magazine for the primary gun. Redundantcy. Being prepared. Paranoia. Whatever you call it. It makes sense to me.

Chances are I will never need to draw my gun. If I do I won't need 48 rounds. But, I am not a cop. While I don't have the obligation to chase down a bad guy, I still have the obligation to fight back and survive. I don't have a radio so I can call for backup. Don't have a highly trained dog. No AR or 12 gauge in the trunk. No body armor. Just me and me alone. So if that one in a million chance comes and I need more ammo, another gun, or magazine, I'll use it. And I'll be happy that I prepared for it.

It's not about capacity.

 

[Blakenzy]

What is the average round count for people that actually survived an encounter? 2.8 is the average of all shootings, does a higher round count correlate with survivability or not?

 

[David E]

What is the average round count for people that actually survived an encounter? 2.8 is the average of all shootings, does a higher round count correlate with survivability or not?

That's right ALL "shootings." This stat includes such things as: warning shots, suicides, accidental discharges, putting animals down, etc. These incidents just about always involve ONE shot fired, thereby drastically skewing the rounds fired in an "average" gunfight downward. And there never was mention of a "surviving the encounter" element involved in that stat.

40% of the time, there are multiple assailants. In the example previously given, about 82% of the time there was more than one assailant.

Most incidents take place at night, perhaps making it more difficult to place your shots.

I'm not aware of anyone who wished, while being in a gunfight, that their gun was smaller, less powerful and held fewer rounds.....

 

[sidheshooter]

For tonight, David E with post # 86 is the man. Well said; A hearty +1.

 

[Deanimator]

As for snubbies vs. auto's, I really don't get the snubby argument.

I carry my 2" S&W Model 36 when it's too difficult to carry something else, particularly in hot weather or when I have to disarm a lot.

When I carry a full sized gun, I carry IWB. The IWB holsters I currently use aren't very comfortable without a t-shirt. I'm not wearing a t-shirt under an outer shirt when it's 90+ degrees out. In those circumstances, it's more convenient for me to carry my 36 in a Desantis Nemesis pocket holster. Some day, I'll probably get at least a couple of purpose made "tuckable" holsters with body shields. I don't have the money for them right now.

Here in Ohio, I can't carry into a restaurant with a "Class D" liquor license (alcohol by the drink). That means that if I want to go to dinner at some place besides MacDonalds, I have to disarm. In those circumstances, it's easier for me to take holster and all out of my pocket and put them in the glove box until I'm done. The same applies to the Post Office and posted businesses.

I'd rather carry a 2" .38 than not carry my Glock 19.

 

[DHJenkins]

Robbery is only one in a long list of 'reasons' why people commit violent crimes. Some people do it for fun, some people to due it to increase their gang status, and others do it because they're high on something; and the list goes on and on.

I'm not going to rely on studies and statistics when it comes to protecting my family, my life or my property. BG's sometimes travel in packs - and my teacher always said to "bring enough for everyone".

 

[Striker]

In almost any self defense scenario you can name your assailants will be trying to rob you or the business you are at.

Then again, perhaps not: http://www.ohio.com/news/50172282.html

 

[Deanimator]

I'm not going to rely on studies and statistics when it comes to protecting my family, my life or my property. BG's sometimes travel in packs - and my teacher always said to "bring enough for everyone".

But if you can't trust a stranger with a gun, unlawfully threatening you with deadly force, whom CAN you trust? The next thing you know, somebody's going to try to claim that such a person might harm you AFTER you give him what he wants, even after PROMISING that he won't...

 

[David E]

Deanimator, what is the penalty for carrying your concealed gun into a restaurant that has the Class D license?

In my state, they changed that, as long as the permit holder doesn't drink.

Some stores have the "No Guns" sign on their door. If I refuse to comply to their naive wishes, and they somehow find out I have a gun, they'll ask me to leave. If I do, no problem. If I do not, then I can be arrested for trespass.

When a business puts that sign on their door, the implication is that they, the business, assumes the responsibility for my safety. The problem is, they don't give a rip about their own safety, much less mine. After all, that's why they have insurance. There is no "action plan" in effect. At best, they have passive measures, such as cameras, to record acts of murder and brutality, hoping that the perpetrators can be identified and later arrested for their crimes.

That's not good enough for me.

My responsibility for my own safety and that of my family does not end whenever I see an impotent "No Guns" sign on the door of a clueless business.

 

[coloradokevin]

A third type is where a cop, or multiple cops, simply don't use their best judgment. We've all seen the news stories, 27 rounds fired, 12 of them hit, and it was just a case of an unarmed person making a bad move.

While this is certainly sometimes true, I think it is important that we don't start to judge shootings based on the number of rounds that were fired. Many of our officer-involved shootings (and we average 8 per year) have involved multiple officers (3-4 cops) at the onset of the shooting, and ammo is quickly dispensed in a gun fight. The other thing we need to recognize is that hit rates go WAY down in a real life-and-death fire fight. One analysis I was shown at work said that, on average, a 98-100% shooter in training will have a hit ratio of about 23% in a real gun battle. So, a surprising number of bullets may move down-range in a short period of time!

Having said all of that, I still think that most civilians would not be undergunned with a revolver. In my business we have to walk into confrontations as a course of our employment, whereas most citizens would be well served to avoid the trouble unless there is no choice but to fight. In other words, by way of a simple example: extracting an armed suspect from a barricaded position is a situation where I wouldn't want to bring a revolver along, but I'd still feel comfortable defending myself with a revolver during my off-duty time!